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Sunir Shah: Welcome back to another
agency connect one-on-one pandemic year

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three, I guess here we are a welcome.

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We have Rob Bynder from the Bynder group.

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I’m Sunir Shah, president of cloud
software association, CEO of AppBind.

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I’m so happy to have Rob here because he
has one of the more interesting stories.

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He’s a designer, a pixel guy, and a
painter guy ended up in digital through

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a series of unfortunate life decisions.

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I’m sure.

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Please introduce yourself Rob.

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Rob Bynder: Thanks.

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Glad to be here and thanks for having me.

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My name is Rob Bynder.

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You got my name, correct.

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Most people call me binder, but
because you have AppBind that’s right.

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So that’s right.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, my background I went to art
school and when I went to college,

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I didn’t even own a computer.

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But it seemed like a good thing
to learn when I finally graduated.

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So I taught myself desktop publishing.

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I went through that whole that whole
crazy bubble in the early nineties, late

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eighties, early nineties of learning
desktop publishing, working with,

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illustrator 88 and cork express 1.0 wow.

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And what did that whole
process started doing?

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A little bit of interactive design, mostly
CD rom like CD rom interface design.

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I was working for a small agency that
was doing digital press kits for movies.

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And we were putting them on CD roms.

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Macromedia style back in the old days.

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And and that was really cool.

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And one day I went into my boss’s
office and I said, you know I

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really think we should put these
press kits on the internet.

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Like, why are we making CD
ROMs and sending them out?

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And his reply was yeah,
the internet will never.

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It’ll never work.

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It’s too slow.

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CD ROMs are perfect.

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And a week later I got a friend
of mine called me with a job offer

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to art direct a startup website.

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This was in 1996 and I took 20.

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Please tell me

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Sunir Shah: it was pets.com

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it was not, it was a it
was an odd little project.

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It was called celebrity sightings, which
sounds like a terrible URL, but it was.

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It’s like teen beat.

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It was a teen celebrities.

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So it makes sense.

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Yeah, that’s right.

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Yeah.

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It was all the teen stars in the nineties.

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It was their fan club, took a huge
pay cut to start working on that

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website and and it was worth it.

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That, that project turned into
a the company we were working

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with, we were the front end.

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We were doing the design
and our development company.

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We ended up merging to become
a full service web agency.

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And that was awesome.

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So that was like the nineties and
that was first-generation websites.

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We were designing very
huge, very expensive.

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E-commerce mostly e-commerce websites
for companies like Footlocker,

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like the Footlocker family of
brands and quite a few other.

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Really big projects.

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They would take a year and a half,
two years to build it was insane.

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They’d be like a million dollars, that
was really fun, but that crazy time ended

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in a crash as we all probably remember.

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And I became self-employed in,
in 2001 and I started freelancing

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as a As a web designer.

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And at the time there weren’t too many
web designers and nobody was, they

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weren’t teaching in school, but I had
a lot of experience building these

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really, designing these very large
data-driven consumer oriented websites.

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And that was great.

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And I.

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I did really well doing that.

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And I did a little bit of other UI design,
but I was a, I was a very busy freelancer.

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And eventually I grew to the
point where I incorporated turned

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it into a real business and
started bringing on contractors.

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To this day we have been a remote
based contractor based small agency.

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So this is actually my 20th year.

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I can’t believe 20 years
have gone by so quickly.

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Yeah.

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Memory lane myself.

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I remember my background, many
people don’t know was in publishing

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when I was a teenager, really.

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But that’s the internet
gave me the job and that was

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worked at a newspaper as well.

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And I remember all these tools.

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But what blew my mind to I’m
younger than you slightly, but

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I grew up with the computers and
the publishing industry together.

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And maybe this has always what it has
been in my head that as much as you

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start with the visual side of marketing.

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But what has turned out to be the
case is marketing is mostly that.

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Side of things because we live on the
internet, it’s a giant marketing machine

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and if you’re not machine oriented,
then you’re not gonna get the marketing.

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And this is where, I had this
epiphany over the holidays like what

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is this podcast going to become?

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I’m talking to digital agencies.

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And if you can’t get the digital
under control in 2022, you’re not

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gonna get the agency under control.

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And I think a lot, so many of us are
struggling with the digital side.

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As much as we think we’re experts.

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It’s still quite a confusing
landscape in the subscription era.

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And that’s what, let’s get into it like,
so you are a designer, but now you’ve

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taken on a marketing automation, CRM.

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Tell me a little bit about
the tech practices you’re

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doing the clients you have.

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And then we can talk about.

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Who’s your best.

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Who is your who’s, what’s been
your best experience working with

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the digital partners or ecosystem?

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Rob Bynder: Yeah, sure.

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So we my, my clients have really changed
over the years, but right now I’d say the

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last I don’t know, seven or eight years.

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We’ve really been focusing on B
to B manufacturers, distributors

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a couple other they’re all B2B.

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Everything is B2B.

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That works well for us.

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And I have clients, I have a very
large commercial Glaser based

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in Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

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I have a lighting distributor, a
commercial lighting distributor.

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I have a commercial furniture distributor.

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Handful a handful of clients like that.

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We don’t have a huge stable, so we
maintain about seven to 10 clients a year.

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For the most part.

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We expand into a couple other
complimentary fields like professional

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services or I do a lot of work
with a company called Semtech,

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which is a microchip manufacturer.

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And they that’s really what
web design for the most part.

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But

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Sunir Shah: your clients are like
technically technical, but there

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require you for do internet marketing
because they’re not, let’s say

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marketing savvy is that right?

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Rob Bynder: Some of them are
quite marketing savvy and

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most of them are not at all.

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And we actually operate.

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As almost a fractional outsourced
marketing communications, strategic

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and tactical team, helping them
representing their full marketing effort.

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And that’s a really interesting way to
engage with my clients because especially

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I think in manufacturing, I think it’s not
the most sophisticated when it comes to

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um Marketing and digital for that matter.

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So the bar’s kind of low and we
can hit a lot of really great balls

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quickly out of the gate for them.

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But it’s also really fun to, to grow
those businesses with them and apply

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these best practices and great software
and watch that business transform.

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And it really it’s just that.

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That’s I enjoyed that the most actually
is getting a company started off

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with doing real marketing and then
watching their reliance on these

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great digital tools like CRM, right?

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Like things that they may not be using
very well, really transformed the way

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they do business and growing with them.

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Sunir Shah: This is the thing, right?

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I think they’re relying on you to take
care of the marketing for it, for them.

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And you’re the expert, but what’s the joy.

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The joy has been their partner.

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Some people we say, a lot of agency
we’re going to be your partner, but

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to be honest, if you actually truly
get to know your clients as people,

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it’s such a pleasure in life to see.

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So like help.

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So many people established their dreams.

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That’s what I always liked about being
a contractor, is seeing the smile

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Rob Bynder: at the end of the day.

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Yeah.

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I think, there’s a lot of agencies
run around saying, we partner, we’re

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your partner, we’re your partner.

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That’s not really true.

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Partnerships are not just.

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One organization pays
another organization.

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That’s not necessarily
a partnership, right?

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So I don’t throw that
word around very easily.

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When it comes to my clients, some of my
clients are clients, some of my clients

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are partners and I’ve worked with
them for 10 or 15 years at this point.

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Either in their business or in
businesses that they’ve brought

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me along to after they’ve.

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Been crawling up their career ladder.

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So yeah those real client
partnerships are inspiring to me.

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I what’s a valuable.

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Sunir Shah: For my little structure here.

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So what is the difference between a
ten-year client and a one-year client?

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Because so many agencies, I thought
I told you like the preamble.

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One thing I noticed when the
subscription era is that the lifetime

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cycle of clients shrunk dramatically
to a 10th unlicensed error.

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We’re both old enough to remember.

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It used to be like, and you’ve obviously
been successful having ten-year clients.

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So what is the difference between a
ten-year client and a one-year clients?

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Rob Bynder: I do have a sh
my share of one-year clients.

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And I would say my, my, my short-term,
my one-year clients are clients that

00:09:06.892 –> 00:09:15.162
are in capable of adopting to new
systems or relying on partnerships.

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My partner.

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To continue down their path.

00:09:18.979 –> 00:09:23.389
Theoretically, I don’t mind bringing on a
client, building a system for them getting

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them started and then training them
and giving them the keys and moving on.

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And that might take a year or
maybe a year and a half, but it

00:09:30.454 –> 00:09:31.804
doesn’t always work that way.

00:09:31.804 –> 00:09:36.964
And the longterm clients are the ones that
we really have been able to demonstrate.

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ROI, right?

00:09:38.671 –> 00:09:42.631
Like you could just run reports and you
can see exactly what we’ve been doing.

00:09:42.631 –> 00:09:44.881
And you can look at the reports
and you can look at the data

00:09:44.881 –> 00:09:47.641
and say, this is where we were,
and this is what we’re doing.

00:09:47.681 –> 00:09:50.161
Let’s stay on the standup path here.

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Sunir Shah: I think that’s the it, right?

00:09:52.111 –> 00:09:55.275
Is it chaos or order and really what
I’ve learned as clients are always

00:09:55.275 –> 00:09:57.659
anxious, you’re not, it doesn’t matter
what kind of contractor, whether you’re

00:09:57.659 –> 00:10:00.719
doing digital marketing or an auto
mechanic or physician or a nail salon

00:10:00.749 –> 00:10:04.079
before a wedding, all you’re trying
to do is bring things under control

00:10:04.079 –> 00:10:05.369
for that client and calm them down.

00:10:05.369 –> 00:10:07.979
Cause they’re always anxious
if they’re delivering and if

00:10:07.979 –> 00:10:09.509
you can continue showing yep.

00:10:09.689 –> 00:10:11.489
Everything’s under control,
return on investment because

00:10:11.519 –> 00:10:12.549
they’re a marketing agency.

00:10:12.556 –> 00:10:13.261
Then you’re winning.

00:10:13.531 –> 00:10:15.118
So w to get back on track,

00:10:15.169 –> 00:10:18.429
you’re a digital agency, obviously
you started off not, you learned

00:10:18.429 –> 00:10:19.489
your digital as you went along.

00:10:19.489 –> 00:10:22.536
So I’m interested in your perspective
and been in for 20 years, who

00:10:22.536 –> 00:10:26.549
has been of all the digital, tech
companies or ad platforms, whatever,

00:10:26.789 –> 00:10:28.589
what has been your best experience?

00:10:28.699 –> 00:10:33.169
So far as an agency, as a partner, or
as a platform to work with, and why.

00:10:34.714 –> 00:10:38.914
Rob Bynder: So a long time ago when
I w no 15 years ago, when we started

00:10:38.914 –> 00:10:43.244
doing email marketing, along with web
design and email marketing, because

00:10:43.244 –> 00:10:44.832
that was the big technology at the time.

00:10:44.850 –> 00:10:49.016
I ended up partnering with a company that
that just wasn’t that didn’t pan out.

00:10:49.336 –> 00:10:50.936
They didn’t realize the potential.

00:10:50.936 –> 00:10:52.946
I thought they were, I thought
they were going to be huge.

00:10:52.946 –> 00:10:54.236
And I was like, all right, I’m all in.

00:10:54.236 –> 00:10:55.166
Let’s get all my clients.

00:10:55.931 –> 00:11:00.521
Email marketing platform and
they just, they got acquired.

00:11:00.521 –> 00:11:01.871
They just fizzle out like that.

00:11:01.871 –> 00:11:05.994
It was just not, it was a poorly run
company for the most part, I think

00:11:06.006 –> 00:11:10.356
about, I don’t know, five or six
years ago, I partnered with HubSpot.

00:11:10.446 –> 00:11:16.104
I did a lot of research and I I needed
a marketing platform partnership.

00:11:16.444 –> 00:11:22.705
That would give me the foundation
for not having to reinvent the wheel.

00:11:22.825 –> 00:11:27.115
Every time I engage with a client,
whether it was just web design or if

00:11:27.115 –> 00:11:31.645
it was web design and more and ongoing
marketing or whether it was taking over

00:11:31.722 –> 00:11:32.892
a marketing efforts they were doing.

00:11:33.672 –> 00:11:37.992
I did a lot of research into the
field and I decided, especially

00:11:37.992 –> 00:11:42.072
after my previous experience,
that HubSpot was a good choice.

00:11:42.309 –> 00:11:45.919
They’re not for everybody, but for me, for
my business, they were really good choice.

00:11:45.979 –> 00:11:48.649
They’re the biggest player in the field.

00:11:48.919 –> 00:11:52.489
They have the most resources I knew
there was going to be a lot of stability.

00:11:52.489 –> 00:11:55.729
I didn’t have the feeling
that they were poorly managed.

00:11:55.729 –> 00:12:01.283
I was impressed with their management and
I really appreciated their partner program

00:12:01.913 –> 00:12:05.273
because as a small agency you know.

00:12:06.143 –> 00:12:11.256
That’s a huge investment of my
time and money to invest in, in a

00:12:11.256 –> 00:12:12.966
partnership with a software company.

00:12:12.980 –> 00:12:16.632
So I went with, I chose
HubSpot and it’s been great.

00:12:16.872 –> 00:12:17.892
It’s been great for me.

00:12:17.962 –> 00:12:19.702
It’s really stabilized my business.

00:12:20.272 –> 00:12:24.924
Not only am I getting the resources
out of them, the technical resources

00:12:24.924 –> 00:12:29.074
and the methodology, but I’ve been
learning how to do sales better.

00:12:29.164 –> 00:12:31.204
I’ve been learning how to
run my business better.

00:12:31.204 –> 00:12:35.752
I’ve been learning how to grow my business
in ways that I didn’t really think about.

00:12:35.812 –> 00:12:40.370
So it’s really nice to have this larger
community that that I could rely on.

00:12:40.370 –> 00:12:44.154
I think for for the kind of input
that I don’t necessarily have as

00:12:44.154 –> 00:12:47.573
a solopreneur, with no partners,
no other people in my business.

00:12:47.857 –> 00:12:49.103
That’s been really successful.

00:12:49.133 –> 00:12:50.093
I appreciate it.

00:12:50.093 –> 00:12:52.913
There, there are challenges
with HubSpot, for sure.

00:12:53.183 –> 00:12:54.173
With any partnership.

00:12:54.353 –> 00:12:54.653
Sure.

00:12:54.679 –> 00:12:58.451
But it’s been, it’s really transformed
my business and I’m really grateful

00:12:58.586 –> 00:12:58.736
Sunir Shah: I mean

00:12:58.736 –> 00:13:03.501
there’s just people there but what they’ve
done as a company, I say that actually

00:13:03.501 –> 00:13:04.611
I’m wearing my inbound shirt today.

00:13:06.246 –> 00:13:06.336
There

00:13:06.336 –> 00:13:06.606
Rob Bynder: you go.

00:13:09.156 –> 00:13:13.396
Sunir Shah: But what they’ve done, what
I’ve always appreciated about HubSpot is

00:13:13.426 –> 00:13:18.016
they’ve viewed the agencies as people as
well, which so many software companies

00:13:18.046 –> 00:13:20.326
don’t, they just view you as dollars.

00:13:20.346 –> 00:13:27.808
And HubSpot does invest time with
you about your business in a way

00:13:27.808 –> 00:13:29.488
that is industry leading right.

00:13:30.728 –> 00:13:32.978
Before that the only other company
I know who’s done that as Moz as

00:13:32.978 –> 00:13:34.628
I suppose to the SEO community.

00:13:34.701 –> 00:13:38.176
And they, I’m from there others,
but like HubSpot, inbound.org

00:13:38.176 –> 00:13:40.396
and all their training about
how to even beat, what is it?

00:13:40.396 –> 00:13:41.736
Inbound marketing agency.

00:13:42.046 –> 00:13:43.006
What does that even mean?

00:13:43.006 –> 00:13:46.306
Like the blog is amazing
and the events are amazing.

00:13:47.151 –> 00:13:47.631
I agree.

00:13:47.811 –> 00:13:51.171
So would you say that’s like the main
characteristic, like how they’ve helped

00:13:51.171 –> 00:13:54.580
you understand what your businesses
are supposed to be as a business owner?

00:13:54.580 –> 00:13:56.900
Or is, has it, have they
done delivered other value?

00:13:56.925 –> 00:13:58.558
The product, yes, but like beyond that

00:13:58.558 –> 00:13:59.478
Rob Bynder: the product for sure.

00:13:59.491 –> 00:14:04.274
And as the product evolves, I’m adding
new business services along with.

00:14:04.364 –> 00:14:07.710
So now everything’s about the
CRM and the sales tool and

00:14:07.740 –> 00:14:09.180
the content management system.

00:14:09.180 –> 00:14:12.720
And these things didn’t really
exist even five years ago

00:14:12.840 –> 00:14:14.307
when I started my partnership.

00:14:14.307 –> 00:14:18.803
It’s helping me expand my services and
become more valuable to my clients.

00:14:18.934 –> 00:14:23.345
But it’s also the community, the HubSpot
community, you and I met through Hubspot.

00:14:23.854 –> 00:14:26.127
And I’ve made a lot of my friends.

00:14:26.187 –> 00:14:27.897
I know just through the community.

00:14:28.037 –> 00:14:30.567
Maybe I’ve never seen them in person,
especially over the last couple of

00:14:30.567 –> 00:14:35.005
years, but like I’m I, I do appreciate
the humanity behind the company.

00:14:35.072 –> 00:14:38.856
I, sometimes I feel like a number to
them, especially because I’m not a,

00:14:38.908 –> 00:14:46.107
super elite, double diamond Sapphire
partner, but I’m kinda just hanging on

00:14:46.107 –> 00:14:51.417
to keep my, my, my tiered partnership
with them because my model is not to

00:14:51.417 –> 00:14:53.787
just sell as much HubSpot as I can.

00:14:54.522 –> 00:14:57.642
Although, I think they’d like that,
but I think they also understand

00:14:58.002 –> 00:15:03.612
that art, we have an overlap of
shared goals, but some of my goals

00:15:03.702 –> 00:15:07.632
are not theirs and some of their
goals are not mine and it still works

00:15:09.480 –> 00:15:12.870
Sunir Shah: that’s the thing, you’re, you
are a separate business and they are a

00:15:12.870 –> 00:15:16.140
separate business from you, but to make
a partnership work like any relationship,

00:15:16.170 –> 00:15:18.450
it’s like any relationship you’re
basically, I wouldn’t say you’re married,

00:15:18.450 –> 00:15:19.879
but it’s like that, they have their needs.

00:15:19.879 –> 00:15:22.519
You’re not going to be, you’re not
the best agency from their point

00:15:22.519 –> 00:15:25.579
of view, but they still invest in
you because they care about you

00:15:25.579 –> 00:15:27.439
to appropriate levels, hopefully.

00:15:27.919 –> 00:15:30.199
And then in return you have your
own business in your own needs.

00:15:30.429 –> 00:15:33.836
They’ve also helped you grow
as an think about new stuff.

00:15:33.919 –> 00:15:39.160
So that’s what is so amazing about, I
know I can gush it a HubSpot all day long.

00:15:39.250 –> 00:15:40.150
It can complain about it too.

00:15:40.159 –> 00:15:41.745
It’s like people, but it’s
been such an interesting.

00:15:42.465 –> 00:15:45.525
It’s such an interesting ecosystem,
definitely industry leading

00:15:45.615 –> 00:15:49.211
like the leaders easily for good
reason, but let’s turn around.

00:15:49.211 –> 00:15:50.621
Let’s get some, add some drama.

00:15:52.061 –> 00:15:53.501
No, but who has been the worst experience?

00:15:53.531 –> 00:15:55.271
You must have worked
with a lots of partners.

00:15:55.691 –> 00:15:58.300
Now you don’t have to name and shame,
but I’m curious, like what kind of

00:15:59.080 –> 00:16:02.770
digital platform or tool has really
given you a hard time as an agency to

00:16:02.770 –> 00:16:04.210
bring things under control for you?

00:16:06.130 –> 00:16:06.550
Rob Bynder: Yeah.

00:16:06.607 –> 00:16:10.215
Boy, there’s a lot of them, because
There’s just a lot of software companies

00:16:10.215 –> 00:16:12.615
out there and it’s doubling every year.

00:16:12.615 –> 00:16:16.377
It seems like to me, early on, like
I mentioned I was with my partner.

00:16:16.399 –> 00:16:21.139
My, my first partnership was with
an email service provider and

00:16:21.319 –> 00:16:23.629
that was not a great experience.

00:16:24.049 –> 00:16:25.819
I thought it was going
to be a great experience.

00:16:25.819 –> 00:16:29.719
And then I watched all their
competition, just blow them away.

00:16:30.859 –> 00:16:34.039
Features and service and partnerships.

00:16:34.039 –> 00:16:37.996
And pretty soon they just they just
floundered and I just, I couldn’t.

00:16:38.446 –> 00:16:42.706
And then I literally had to get
my clients off that platform at

00:16:42.706 –> 00:16:45.406
my costs, because I just didn’t
want to work with them anymore.

00:16:45.946 –> 00:16:47.986
And that was, yeah, it was terrible.

00:16:48.076 –> 00:16:48.886
It was terrible.

00:16:48.886 –> 00:16:54.732
So the other ones that I come across
companies all the time now, I would say.

00:16:56.802 –> 00:17:00.742
I’m contacted several times a day by
companies that want to partner with me.

00:17:00.742 –> 00:17:04.125
We, you’re an agency and we mix up
where, and we want to partner with you.

00:17:04.545 –> 00:17:09.172
And, I know they’re using automation and
I’m getting these robot emails from them.

00:17:09.201 –> 00:17:10.497
I know what they’re doing.

00:17:10.497 –> 00:17:14.117
And I can tell that it there’s
not a lot of humanity there.

00:17:14.126 –> 00:17:18.016
There’s not a lot of commitment
on their part to help me.

00:17:18.626 –> 00:17:23.198
Grow or to do or to provide me
with anything I really need.

00:17:23.528 –> 00:17:26.721
And even though, I’ve come across
a few platforms here and there

00:17:26.721 –> 00:17:28.412
that you’re like, oh that’s good.

00:17:28.442 –> 00:17:29.582
That’s good functionality.

00:17:29.582 –> 00:17:33.332
And I think it’s going to dovetail
well with what my clients need.

00:17:33.344 –> 00:17:38.573
Ultimately I may not even partner with
them, we’ll just get one account going and

00:17:38.603 –> 00:17:42.498
I’ll just move on because I just don’t,
I don’t feel like they’re committed to.

00:17:42.566 –> 00:17:45.675
In ways that I’ve come to expect
through my relationship with HubSpot,

00:17:45.723 –> 00:17:47.733
I did just start a new going back.

00:17:47.733 –> 00:17:48.513
I don’t know, man.

00:17:48.723 –> 00:17:52.768
I can complain all day long, but I
know, I guess you do want to hear it.

00:17:52.827 –> 00:17:56.330
I just started working with
Leadfeeder and they’re awesome.

00:17:56.360 –> 00:17:58.610
Like they’ve been really
good to work with.

00:17:58.643 –> 00:18:02.693
Just started a partnership with them and
it dovetails really well with what I’m

00:18:02.693 –> 00:18:04.838
doing in HubSpot for a lot of my clients.

00:18:04.838 –> 00:18:08.111
And just this week I had some
really good calls with them and

00:18:08.501 –> 00:18:10.661
we got one project off the ground.

00:18:10.661 –> 00:18:12.401
And what made it work?

00:18:12.431 –> 00:18:13.437
Sunir Shah: Like why were they so great?

00:18:13.451 –> 00:18:18.390
Rob Bynder: I got the sense that
they understood my business and my.

00:18:19.540 –> 00:18:24.670
And made it clear that they had
a good tool that when appropriate

00:18:24.700 –> 00:18:26.440
would help me do my job better.

00:18:27.010 –> 00:18:30.550
And I felt like they were
listening to my needs as well as

00:18:30.550 –> 00:18:32.128
just telling me to sell software.

00:18:32.157 –> 00:18:33.747
I have access to them.

00:18:33.837 –> 00:18:36.267
I don’t, they’re easy
to get in touch with.

00:18:36.297 –> 00:18:37.167
They’re very helpful.

00:18:37.167 –> 00:18:41.637
They’re willing to jump on demonstrations
with me and sales calls with me and

00:18:41.637 –> 00:18:45.117
help me figure out how to sell better.

00:18:45.210 –> 00:18:48.463
And and that’s just started, but
that was nice because I come across

00:18:48.463 –> 00:18:52.393
some other companies, maybe not
their competitors, but certainly

00:18:52.393 –> 00:18:55.183
maybe some HubSpot competitors that
are always knocking on their door.

00:18:55.663 –> 00:18:58.769
And I just I just get a bad feeling.

00:18:58.979 –> 00:19:02.369
I get a bad feeling from having
that introductory phone call with

00:19:02.369 –> 00:19:03.835
them, just yeah, you guys are just.

00:19:06.575 –> 00:19:09.200
You don’t understand that, you
don’t understand my business

00:19:09.200 –> 00:19:10.310
and you don’t really care to.

00:19:10.339 –> 00:19:13.879
Sunir Shah: They probably, if they just
want you to sell their software, they

00:19:13.879 –> 00:19:16.549
don’t care anything about your needs.

00:19:16.577 –> 00:19:16.977
Rob Bynder: I don’t

00:19:17.967 –> 00:19:18.147
Sunir Shah: know.

00:19:18.147 –> 00:19:22.647
I’ll tell you a story about me because
I should be interviewing you, but I

00:19:22.647 –> 00:19:25.197
did this on purpose and this leads
to the last question, but my original

00:19:25.227 –> 00:19:26.477
headline for AppBind, I knew it was.

00:19:27.332 –> 00:19:28.562
But I just wanted to throw it out there.

00:19:28.562 –> 00:19:28.682
Cause

00:19:28.732 –> 00:19:29.992
I wanted people to get angry.

00:19:30.022 –> 00:19:31.372
Cause I want to hear what it was like.

00:19:32.212 –> 00:19:33.562
Cause I’m a troll, I’m a troll.

00:19:33.592 –> 00:19:37.330
So I’m originally headline on the
homepage was buy software and sell it to

00:19:37.330 –> 00:19:42.160
your clients, which is absolutely what
everyone, every SaaS company is pitching

00:19:42.190 –> 00:19:44.620
and is absolutely the wrong message.

00:19:44.681 –> 00:19:48.516
I just, I cornered somebody at one
of my cocktail parties at Dreamforce.

00:19:48.546 –> 00:19:48.786
Remember.

00:19:48.798 –> 00:19:51.080
It was probably inappropriate that
cornered to him, but I bought him a drink.

00:19:51.080 –> 00:19:52.250
That’s how that sits.

00:19:52.250 –> 00:19:52.580
Okay.

00:19:52.790 –> 00:19:52.880
Yeah.

00:19:52.880 –> 00:19:53.510
Who’s friends of mine.

00:19:53.510 –> 00:19:53.780
It’s funny.

00:19:54.620 –> 00:19:56.330
I like what’s wrong with this message.

00:19:57.875 –> 00:19:59.345
No, there was no value in it.

00:19:59.345 –> 00:20:00.245
It was all risks.

00:20:00.305 –> 00:20:02.645
And I just feel so many of the
software companies are just trying

00:20:02.645 –> 00:20:06.515
to push risk down into your throat
so they can make their quota.

00:20:06.965 –> 00:20:09.335
And they’re so afraid of you
as, at the same time, which is

00:20:09.335 –> 00:20:11.915
why they’re not listening to you
because they don’t know you at all.

00:20:11.915 –> 00:20:14.735
And they have the reason why is
because they’ve been risked isn’t and

00:20:14.735 –> 00:20:16.625
pushed down to them from the CX suite.

00:20:16.650 –> 00:20:17.625
And make more money.

00:20:17.685 –> 00:20:20.175
And I don’t know anything
about these people do it now.

00:20:21.465 –> 00:20:23.685
And then just view you
as the customer channel.

00:20:23.685 –> 00:20:24.885
Cause they’re so used to direct.

00:20:25.275 –> 00:20:28.395
So my last question, maybe you already
answered it with Leadfeeder, but

00:20:28.395 –> 00:20:32.413
like actually, maybe you have, but if
someone’s, if you had to give advice to

00:20:32.413 –> 00:20:36.447
a software company, to emulate Leadfeeder
and be better how could they improve

00:20:36.877 –> 00:20:40.017
in, in talking with you rather than.

00:20:41.927 –> 00:20:42.437
Yeah, that’s a good

00:20:42.437 –> 00:20:42.887
Rob Bynder: question.

00:20:42.887 –> 00:20:46.682
I answered that with Leadfeeder, but I
think like in a nutshell if I’m talking

00:20:46.682 –> 00:20:51.692
to a salesperson about a partnership,
it’s not going to work, they’re working

00:20:51.692 –> 00:20:53.222
on quotas, they’re working on sales.

00:20:53.222 –> 00:20:55.202
They just want me to sell for them.

00:20:55.261 –> 00:20:58.894
They’re looking for a pyramid,
somewhat of a pyramid situation.

00:20:59.674 –> 00:21:01.864
If I’m talking to somebody
who maybe doesn’t know.

00:21:03.014 –> 00:21:06.404
Skin in the game, as far as sales
goes, maybe they all do, but they

00:21:06.404 –> 00:21:11.721
don’t, it doesn’t feel like it to me
they’re literally a partner manager.

00:21:11.771 –> 00:21:13.855
I think that’s going to
be a lot more successful.

00:21:13.885 –> 00:21:18.625
I feel like with HubSpot and with
Leadfeeder, I think my partner contacts

00:21:19.045 –> 00:21:23.395
are more concerned about my success as
a business and how their tool fits in.

00:21:24.385 –> 00:21:27.925
Then they are about selling
units, selling subscriptions.

00:21:28.015 –> 00:21:30.349
And and I think that
would be my suggestion.

00:21:30.349 –> 00:21:36.093
If you’re going to try to build a
partnership program, treat your partners

00:21:36.093 –> 00:21:40.439
like clients solve their needs, listen to
what they need and solve their problems.

00:21:41.589 –> 00:21:42.039
Sunir Shah: Amazing.

00:21:42.163 –> 00:21:43.213
So how do we get ahold of you?

00:21:43.333 –> 00:21:44.503
Thank you very much for doing this.

00:21:44.503 –> 00:21:45.103
So how do we get into.

00:21:45.216 –> 00:21:45.708
Rob Bynder: Of course.

00:21:45.791 –> 00:21:50.118
My website is Bynder
group.com byndergroup.com.

00:21:51.698 –> 00:21:52.148
Sorry.

00:21:52.215 –> 00:21:54.096
You can find me on LinkedIn at Rob Bynder.

00:21:54.146 –> 00:21:59.546
I’m one of the only BYN D E R is in the
country or in the world for that matter.

00:21:59.675 –> 00:22:02.366
And you could email me
at rob@byndergroup.com

00:22:03.566 –> 00:22:05.636
Sunir Shah: thank you so much
for being so candid and I love

00:22:05.666 –> 00:22:07.076
that you had such a long history.

00:22:08.126 –> 00:22:12.416
Coming in from visuals into tech, because
that is the journey that I’ve been on.

00:22:12.446 –> 00:22:15.656
Similarly, not quite
visual, but similar journey.

00:22:15.656 –> 00:22:19.826
And it’s nice to talk to someone who has
experienced it alongside with me as well.

00:22:19.826 –> 00:22:20.096
So

00:22:20.696 –> 00:22:20.916
Rob Bynder: thank you.

00:22:20.916 –> 00:22:21.956
So thanks for having me Sunir.

00:22:21.956 –> 00:22:22.946
I really appreciate it.

00:22:22.946 –> 00:22:24.356
It’s great to talk with you too.