Rob Bynder from Bynder Group Shares Some Insights into Marketing Agency Life Here on Agency Connect

Top Quotes from Our Conversation:

“One day I went into my boss’s office and I said, you know I really think we should put these press kits on the internet. Like, why are we making CD ROMs and sending them out? And his reply was yeah, the internet will never. It’ll never work. It’s too slow. CD ROMs are perfect. And a week later I got a friend of mine called me with a job offer to art direct a startup website.”

“A lot of agencies run around saying, we’re your partner. That’s not really true. They don’t truly help people. Do you provide an ROI for your clients at the end of the day?”

“Everything’s now about the CRM and the sales tool and the content management system. It’s helping me expand my services and become more valuable to my clients. What makes a tool great? A tool or platform that understands my business and makes it clear that it would make my job better.”

“If you’re going to try to build a partnership program, treat your partners like clients solve their needs, listen to what they need and solve their problems.”

Thank you Rob Bynder from Bynder Group for your candid and honest story at another Agency Connect podcast.

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00:00:05.240 –> 00:00:08.720
Sunir Shah: Welcome back to another
agency connect one-on-one pandemic year

00:00:08.720 –> 00:00:11.760
three, I guess here we are a welcome.

00:00:11.780 –> 00:00:14.000
We have Rob Bynder from the Bynder group.

00:00:14.064 –> 00:00:17.422
I’m Sunir Shah, president of cloud
software association, CEO of AppBind.

00:00:17.712 –> 00:00:20.862
I’m so happy to have Rob here because he
has one of the more interesting stories.

00:00:20.933 –> 00:00:25.163
He’s a designer, a pixel guy, and a
painter guy ended up in digital through

00:00:25.163 –> 00:00:26.933
a series of unfortunate life decisions.

00:00:26.933 –> 00:00:27.366
I’m sure.

00:00:27.366 –> 00:00:28.498
Please introduce yourself Rob.

00:00:30.093 –> 00:00:30.383
Rob Bynder: Thanks.

00:00:30.933 –> 00:00:32.463
Glad to be here and thanks for having me.

00:00:32.546 –> 00:00:33.456
My name is Rob Bynder.

00:00:33.506 –> 00:00:34.826
You got my name, correct.

00:00:34.887 –> 00:00:38.294
Most people call me binder, but
because you have AppBind that’s right.

00:00:38.304 –> 00:00:41.004
So that’s right.

00:00:41.184 –> 00:00:41.364
Yeah.

00:00:41.634 –> 00:00:46.397
So yeah, my background I went to art
school and when I went to college,

00:00:47.087 –> 00:00:48.957
I didn’t even own a computer.

00:00:48.993 –> 00:00:53.073
But it seemed like a good thing
to learn when I finally graduated.

00:00:53.135 –> 00:00:57.395
So I taught myself desktop publishing.

00:00:57.815 –> 00:01:02.531
I went through that whole that whole
crazy bubble in the early nineties, late

00:01:02.531 –> 00:01:06.461
eighties, early nineties of learning
desktop publishing, working with,

00:01:06.528 –> 00:01:10.563
illustrator 88 and cork express 1.0 wow.

00:01:12.742 –> 00:01:15.341
And what did that whole
process started doing?

00:01:15.341 –> 00:01:20.261
A little bit of interactive design, mostly
CD rom like CD rom interface design.

00:01:20.261 –> 00:01:25.755
I was working for a small agency that
was doing digital press kits for movies.

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And we were putting them on CD roms.

00:01:28.855 –> 00:01:31.748
Macromedia style back in the old days.

00:01:31.825 –> 00:01:33.104
And and that was really cool.

00:01:33.104 –> 00:01:36.277
And one day I went into my boss’s
office and I said, you know I

00:01:36.277 –> 00:01:41.017
really think we should put these
press kits on the internet.

00:01:41.927 –> 00:01:44.677
Like, why are we making CD
ROMs and sending them out?

00:01:44.827 –> 00:01:47.663
And his reply was yeah,
the internet will never.

00:01:48.463 –> 00:01:49.213
It’ll never work.

00:01:49.213 –> 00:01:50.083
It’s too slow.

00:01:50.263 –> 00:01:51.433
CD ROMs are perfect.

00:01:53.983 –> 00:01:57.163
And a week later I got a friend
of mine called me with a job offer

00:01:57.163 –> 00:01:59.773
to art direct a startup website.

00:01:59.803 –> 00:02:03.509
This was in 1996 and I took 20.

00:02:04.109 –> 00:02:04.479
Please tell me

00:02:04.479 –> 00:02:05.233
Sunir Shah: it was pets.com

00:02:05.233 –> 00:02:07.788
it was not, it was a it
was an odd little project.

00:02:07.867 –> 00:02:12.508
It was called celebrity sightings, which
sounds like a terrible URL, but it was.

00:02:13.213 –> 00:02:14.113
It’s like teen beat.

00:02:14.143 –> 00:02:15.343
It was a teen celebrities.

00:02:16.063 –> 00:02:17.143
So it makes sense.

00:02:17.383 –> 00:02:18.613
Yeah, that’s right.

00:02:18.643 –> 00:02:18.973
Yeah.

00:02:19.513 –> 00:02:21.343
It was all the teen stars in the nineties.

00:02:21.373 –> 00:02:26.233
It was their fan club, took a huge
pay cut to start working on that

00:02:26.233 –> 00:02:28.282
website and and it was worth it.

00:02:28.295 –> 00:02:34.819
That, that project turned into
a the company we were working

00:02:34.819 –> 00:02:36.409
with, we were the front end.

00:02:36.409 –> 00:02:39.049
We were doing the design
and our development company.

00:02:39.492 –> 00:02:43.092
We ended up merging to become
a full service web agency.

00:02:43.752 –> 00:02:45.045
And that was awesome.

00:02:45.045 –> 00:02:48.705
So that was like the nineties and
that was first-generation websites.

00:02:48.705 –> 00:02:52.995
We were designing very
huge, very expensive.

00:02:53.036 –> 00:02:57.714
E-commerce mostly e-commerce websites
for companies like Footlocker,

00:02:57.924 –> 00:03:01.494
like the Footlocker family of
brands and quite a few other.

00:03:02.484 –> 00:03:03.744
Really big projects.

00:03:03.774 –> 00:03:07.105
They would take a year and a half,
two years to build it was insane.

00:03:07.135 –> 00:03:13.184
They’d be like a million dollars, that
was really fun, but that crazy time ended

00:03:13.184 –> 00:03:16.634
in a crash as we all probably remember.

00:03:16.634 –> 00:03:21.134
And I became self-employed in,
in 2001 and I started freelancing

00:03:21.162 –> 00:03:22.550
as a As a web designer.

00:03:22.670 –> 00:03:25.910
And at the time there weren’t too many
web designers and nobody was, they

00:03:25.910 –> 00:03:29.720
weren’t teaching in school, but I had
a lot of experience building these

00:03:29.720 –> 00:03:35.921
really, designing these very large
data-driven consumer oriented websites.

00:03:35.921 –> 00:03:37.031
And that was great.

00:03:37.031 –> 00:03:37.481
And I.

00:03:38.651 –> 00:03:40.091
I did really well doing that.

00:03:40.091 –> 00:03:45.299
And I did a little bit of other UI design,
but I was a, I was a very busy freelancer.

00:03:46.019 –> 00:03:50.244
And eventually I grew to the
point where I incorporated turned

00:03:50.244 –> 00:03:54.642
it into a real business and
started bringing on contractors.

00:03:54.669 –> 00:04:00.569
To this day we have been a remote
based contractor based small agency.

00:04:00.899 –> 00:04:03.382
So this is actually my 20th year.

00:04:03.499 –> 00:04:06.259
I can’t believe 20 years
have gone by so quickly.

00:04:06.589 –> 00:04:06.769
Yeah.

00:04:06.799 –> 00:04:07.819
Memory lane myself.

00:04:07.849 –> 00:04:11.479
I remember my background, many
people don’t know was in publishing

00:04:12.259 –> 00:04:13.469
when I was a teenager, really.

00:04:13.498 –> 00:04:15.438
But that’s the internet
gave me the job and that was

00:04:15.438 –> 00:04:16.728
worked at a newspaper as well.

00:04:17.088 –> 00:04:17.868
And I remember all these tools.

00:04:18.798 –> 00:04:22.365
But what blew my mind to I’m
younger than you slightly, but

00:04:22.396 –> 00:04:25.366
I grew up with the computers and
the publishing industry together.

00:04:25.636 –> 00:04:29.296
And maybe this has always what it has
been in my head that as much as you

00:04:29.296 –> 00:04:31.906
start with the visual side of marketing.

00:04:31.932 –> 00:04:35.969
But what has turned out to be the
case is marketing is mostly that.

00:04:36.749 –> 00:04:40.319
Side of things because we live on the
internet, it’s a giant marketing machine

00:04:40.319 –> 00:04:43.499
and if you’re not machine oriented,
then you’re not gonna get the marketing.

00:04:43.829 –> 00:04:47.593
And this is where, I had this
epiphany over the holidays like what

00:04:47.593 –> 00:04:49.243
is this podcast going to become?

00:04:50.458 –> 00:04:51.778
I’m talking to digital agencies.

00:04:51.778 –> 00:04:54.238
And if you can’t get the digital
under control in 2022, you’re not

00:04:54.238 –> 00:04:55.678
gonna get the agency under control.

00:04:55.678 –> 00:05:00.058
And I think a lot, so many of us are
struggling with the digital side.

00:05:00.058 –> 00:05:01.408
As much as we think we’re experts.

00:05:01.438 –> 00:05:05.368
It’s still quite a confusing
landscape in the subscription era.

00:05:05.428 –> 00:05:09.955
And that’s what, let’s get into it like,
so you are a designer, but now you’ve

00:05:09.955 –> 00:05:11.815
taken on a marketing automation, CRM.

00:05:11.845 –> 00:05:13.315
Tell me a little bit about
the tech practices you’re

00:05:13.315 –> 00:05:14.185
doing the clients you have.

00:05:14.185 –> 00:05:14.905
And then we can talk about.

00:05:15.975 –> 00:05:16.425
Who’s your best.

00:05:16.425 –> 00:05:18.505
Who is your who’s, what’s been
your best experience working with

00:05:18.505 –> 00:05:20.215
the digital partners or ecosystem?

00:05:20.905 –> 00:05:21.415
Rob Bynder: Yeah, sure.

00:05:21.655 –> 00:05:25.498
So we my, my clients have really changed
over the years, but right now I’d say the

00:05:25.498 –> 00:05:27.655
last I don’t know, seven or eight years.

00:05:27.655 –> 00:05:31.821
We’ve really been focusing on B
to B manufacturers, distributors

00:05:31.858 –> 00:05:34.244
a couple other they’re all B2B.

00:05:34.334 –> 00:05:35.264
Everything is B2B.

00:05:35.342 –> 00:05:36.602
That works well for us.

00:05:37.052 –> 00:05:42.333
And I have clients, I have a very
large commercial Glaser based

00:05:42.483 –> 00:05:45.843
in Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

00:05:46.263 –> 00:05:50.193
I have a lighting distributor, a
commercial lighting distributor.

00:05:50.193 –> 00:05:52.713
I have a commercial furniture distributor.

00:05:52.824 –> 00:05:54.864
Handful a handful of clients like that.

00:05:54.864 –> 00:06:00.024
We don’t have a huge stable, so we
maintain about seven to 10 clients a year.

00:06:00.234 –> 00:06:00.888
For the most part.

00:06:00.948 –> 00:06:04.488
We expand into a couple other
complimentary fields like professional

00:06:04.488 –> 00:06:08.836
services or I do a lot of work
with a company called Semtech,

00:06:08.896 –> 00:06:10.996
which is a microchip manufacturer.

00:06:11.026 –> 00:06:14.308
And they that’s really what
web design for the most part.

00:06:14.308 –> 00:06:14.578
But

00:06:14.590 –> 00:06:17.490
Sunir Shah: your clients are like
technically technical, but there

00:06:17.520 –> 00:06:20.310
require you for do internet marketing
because they’re not, let’s say

00:06:20.430 –> 00:06:21.730
marketing savvy is that right?

00:06:21.734 –> 00:06:24.554
Rob Bynder: Some of them are
quite marketing savvy and

00:06:24.644 –> 00:06:26.474
most of them are not at all.

00:06:26.534 –> 00:06:28.094
And we actually operate.

00:06:29.129 –> 00:06:34.409
As almost a fractional outsourced
marketing communications, strategic

00:06:34.409 –> 00:06:39.399
and tactical team, helping them
representing their full marketing effort.

00:06:39.399 –> 00:06:44.036
And that’s a really interesting way to
engage with my clients because especially

00:06:44.036 –> 00:06:50.126
I think in manufacturing, I think it’s not
the most sophisticated when it comes to

00:06:50.186 –> 00:06:54.401
um Marketing and digital for that matter.

00:06:54.641 –> 00:06:59.288
So the bar’s kind of low and we
can hit a lot of really great balls

00:06:59.288 –> 00:07:01.388
quickly out of the gate for them.

00:07:01.432 –> 00:07:06.592
But it’s also really fun to, to grow
those businesses with them and apply

00:07:06.592 –> 00:07:12.202
these best practices and great software
and watch that business transform.

00:07:12.562 –> 00:07:14.959
And it really it’s just that.

00:07:15.874 –> 00:07:20.686
That’s I enjoyed that the most actually
is getting a company started off

00:07:20.748 –> 00:07:25.403
with doing real marketing and then
watching their reliance on these

00:07:25.403 –> 00:07:27.953
great digital tools like CRM, right?

00:07:27.953 –> 00:07:31.913
Like things that they may not be using
very well, really transformed the way

00:07:31.913 –> 00:07:34.323
they do business and growing with them.

00:07:34.589 –> 00:07:35.789
Sunir Shah: This is the thing, right?

00:07:35.789 –> 00:07:39.634
I think they’re relying on you to take
care of the marketing for it, for them.

00:07:39.638 –> 00:07:41.708
And you’re the expert, but what’s the joy.

00:07:41.738 –> 00:07:42.728
The joy has been their partner.

00:07:42.783 –> 00:07:45.107
Some people we say, a lot of agency
we’re going to be your partner, but

00:07:45.156 –> 00:07:47.956
to be honest, if you actually truly
get to know your clients as people,

00:07:47.956 –> 00:07:49.871
it’s such a pleasure in life to see.

00:07:49.871 –> 00:07:50.531
So like help.

00:07:50.541 –> 00:07:52.751
So many people established their dreams.

00:07:52.779 –> 00:07:56.182
That’s what I always liked about being
a contractor, is seeing the smile

00:07:56.182 –> 00:07:56.572
Rob Bynder: at the end of the day.

00:07:57.442 –> 00:07:57.692
Yeah.

00:07:57.768 –> 00:08:00.952
I think, there’s a lot of agencies
run around saying, we partner, we’re

00:08:00.952 –> 00:08:02.212
your partner, we’re your partner.

00:08:02.212 –> 00:08:03.515
That’s not really true.

00:08:03.636 –> 00:08:05.346
Partnerships are not just.

00:08:07.431 –> 00:08:09.441
One organization pays
another organization.

00:08:09.441 –> 00:08:11.544
That’s not necessarily
a partnership, right?

00:08:11.614 –> 00:08:15.054
So I don’t throw that
word around very easily.

00:08:15.054 –> 00:08:18.894
When it comes to my clients, some of my
clients are clients, some of my clients

00:08:18.894 –> 00:08:23.404
are partners and I’ve worked with
them for 10 or 15 years at this point.

00:08:23.404 –> 00:08:26.602
Either in their business or in
businesses that they’ve brought

00:08:26.602 –> 00:08:28.212
me along to after they’ve.

00:08:28.552 –> 00:08:31.342
Been crawling up their career ladder.

00:08:31.822 –> 00:08:36.391
So yeah those real client
partnerships are inspiring to me.

00:08:36.511 –> 00:08:37.321
I what’s a valuable.

00:08:37.407 –> 00:08:38.607
Sunir Shah: For my little structure here.

00:08:38.697 –> 00:08:41.697
So what is the difference between a
ten-year client and a one-year client?

00:08:41.697 –> 00:08:45.177
Because so many agencies, I thought
I told you like the preamble.

00:08:45.387 –> 00:08:48.207
One thing I noticed when the
subscription era is that the lifetime

00:08:48.207 –> 00:08:52.440
cycle of clients shrunk dramatically
to a 10th unlicensed error.

00:08:52.440 –> 00:08:53.520
We’re both old enough to remember.

00:08:53.520 –> 00:08:56.970
It used to be like, and you’ve obviously
been successful having ten-year clients.

00:08:57.330 –> 00:08:59.760
So what is the difference between a
ten-year client and a one-year clients?

00:08:59.813 –> 00:09:01.942
Rob Bynder: I do have a sh
my share of one-year clients.

00:09:02.152 –> 00:09:06.892
And I would say my, my, my short-term,
my one-year clients are clients that

00:09:06.892 –> 00:09:15.162
are in capable of adopting to new
systems or relying on partnerships.

00:09:15.209 –> 00:09:15.719
My partner.

00:09:16.609 –> 00:09:18.709
To continue down their path.

00:09:18.979 –> 00:09:23.389
Theoretically, I don’t mind bringing on a
client, building a system for them getting

00:09:23.389 –> 00:09:27.494
them started and then training them
and giving them the keys and moving on.

00:09:27.494 –> 00:09:30.384
And that might take a year or
maybe a year and a half, but it

00:09:30.454 –> 00:09:31.804
doesn’t always work that way.

00:09:31.804 –> 00:09:36.964
And the longterm clients are the ones that
we really have been able to demonstrate.

00:09:37.441 –> 00:09:38.671
ROI, right?

00:09:38.671 –> 00:09:42.631
Like you could just run reports and you
can see exactly what we’ve been doing.

00:09:42.631 –> 00:09:44.881
And you can look at the reports
and you can look at the data

00:09:44.881 –> 00:09:47.641
and say, this is where we were,
and this is what we’re doing.

00:09:47.681 –> 00:09:50.161
Let’s stay on the standup path here.

00:09:50.661 –> 00:09:52.111
Sunir Shah: I think that’s the it, right?

00:09:52.111 –> 00:09:55.275
Is it chaos or order and really what
I’ve learned as clients are always

00:09:55.275 –> 00:09:57.659
anxious, you’re not, it doesn’t matter
what kind of contractor, whether you’re

00:09:57.659 –> 00:10:00.719
doing digital marketing or an auto
mechanic or physician or a nail salon

00:10:00.749 –> 00:10:04.079
before a wedding, all you’re trying
to do is bring things under control

00:10:04.079 –> 00:10:05.369
for that client and calm them down.

00:10:05.369 –> 00:10:07.979
Cause they’re always anxious
if they’re delivering and if

00:10:07.979 –> 00:10:09.509
you can continue showing yep.

00:10:09.689 –> 00:10:11.489
Everything’s under control,
return on investment because

00:10:11.519 –> 00:10:12.549
they’re a marketing agency.

00:10:12.556 –> 00:10:13.261
Then you’re winning.

00:10:13.531 –> 00:10:15.118
So w to get back on track,

00:10:15.169 –> 00:10:18.429
you’re a digital agency, obviously
you started off not, you learned

00:10:18.429 –> 00:10:19.489
your digital as you went along.

00:10:19.489 –> 00:10:22.536
So I’m interested in your perspective
and been in for 20 years, who

00:10:22.536 –> 00:10:26.549
has been of all the digital, tech
companies or ad platforms, whatever,

00:10:26.789 –> 00:10:28.589
what has been your best experience?

00:10:28.699 –> 00:10:33.169
So far as an agency, as a partner, or
as a platform to work with, and why.

00:10:34.714 –> 00:10:38.914
Rob Bynder: So a long time ago when
I w no 15 years ago, when we started

00:10:38.914 –> 00:10:43.244
doing email marketing, along with web
design and email marketing, because

00:10:43.244 –> 00:10:44.832
that was the big technology at the time.

00:10:44.850 –> 00:10:49.016
I ended up partnering with a company that
that just wasn’t that didn’t pan out.

00:10:49.336 –> 00:10:50.936
They didn’t realize the potential.

00:10:50.936 –> 00:10:52.946
I thought they were, I thought
they were going to be huge.

00:10:52.946 –> 00:10:54.236
And I was like, all right, I’m all in.

00:10:54.236 –> 00:10:55.166
Let’s get all my clients.

00:10:55.931 –> 00:11:00.521
Email marketing platform and
they just, they got acquired.

00:11:00.521 –> 00:11:01.871
They just fizzle out like that.

00:11:01.871 –> 00:11:05.994
It was just not, it was a poorly run
company for the most part, I think

00:11:06.006 –> 00:11:10.356
about, I don’t know, five or six
years ago, I partnered with HubSpot.

00:11:10.446 –> 00:11:16.104
I did a lot of research and I I needed
a marketing platform partnership.

00:11:16.444 –> 00:11:22.705
That would give me the foundation
for not having to reinvent the wheel.

00:11:22.825 –> 00:11:27.115
Every time I engage with a client,
whether it was just web design or if

00:11:27.115 –> 00:11:31.645
it was web design and more and ongoing
marketing or whether it was taking over

00:11:31.722 –> 00:11:32.892
a marketing efforts they were doing.

00:11:33.672 –> 00:11:37.992
I did a lot of research into the
field and I decided, especially

00:11:37.992 –> 00:11:42.072
after my previous experience,
that HubSpot was a good choice.

00:11:42.309 –> 00:11:45.919
They’re not for everybody, but for me, for
my business, they were really good choice.

00:11:45.979 –> 00:11:48.649
They’re the biggest player in the field.

00:11:48.919 –> 00:11:52.489
They have the most resources I knew
there was going to be a lot of stability.

00:11:52.489 –> 00:11:55.729
I didn’t have the feeling
that they were poorly managed.

00:11:55.729 –> 00:12:01.283
I was impressed with their management and
I really appreciated their partner program

00:12:01.913 –> 00:12:05.273
because as a small agency you know.

00:12:06.143 –> 00:12:11.256
That’s a huge investment of my
time and money to invest in, in a

00:12:11.256 –> 00:12:12.966
partnership with a software company.

00:12:12.980 –> 00:12:16.632
So I went with, I chose
HubSpot and it’s been great.

00:12:16.872 –> 00:12:17.892
It’s been great for me.

00:12:17.962 –> 00:12:19.702
It’s really stabilized my business.

00:12:20.272 –> 00:12:24.924
Not only am I getting the resources
out of them, the technical resources

00:12:24.924 –> 00:12:29.074
and the methodology, but I’ve been
learning how to do sales better.

00:12:29.164 –> 00:12:31.204
I’ve been learning how to
run my business better.

00:12:31.204 –> 00:12:35.752
I’ve been learning how to grow my business
in ways that I didn’t really think about.

00:12:35.812 –> 00:12:40.370
So it’s really nice to have this larger
community that that I could rely on.

00:12:40.370 –> 00:12:44.154
I think for for the kind of input
that I don’t necessarily have as

00:12:44.154 –> 00:12:47.573
a solopreneur, with no partners,
no other people in my business.

00:12:47.857 –> 00:12:49.103
That’s been really successful.

00:12:49.133 –> 00:12:50.093
I appreciate it.

00:12:50.093 –> 00:12:52.913
There, there are challenges
with HubSpot, for sure.

00:12:53.183 –> 00:12:54.173
With any partnership.

00:12:54.353 –> 00:12:54.653
Sure.

00:12:54.679 –> 00:12:58.451
But it’s been, it’s really transformed
my business and I’m really grateful

00:12:58.586 –> 00:12:58.736
Sunir Shah: I mean

00:12:58.736 –> 00:13:03.501
there’s just people there but what they’ve
done as a company, I say that actually

00:13:03.501 –> 00:13:04.611
I’m wearing my inbound shirt today.

00:13:06.246 –> 00:13:06.336
There

00:13:06.336 –> 00:13:06.606
Rob Bynder: you go.

00:13:09.156 –> 00:13:13.396
Sunir Shah: But what they’ve done, what
I’ve always appreciated about HubSpot is

00:13:13.426 –> 00:13:18.016
they’ve viewed the agencies as people as
well, which so many software companies

00:13:18.046 –> 00:13:20.326
don’t, they just view you as dollars.

00:13:20.346 –> 00:13:27.808
And HubSpot does invest time with
you about your business in a way

00:13:27.808 –> 00:13:29.488
that is industry leading right.

00:13:30.728 –> 00:13:32.978
Before that the only other company
I know who’s done that as Moz as

00:13:32.978 –> 00:13:34.628
I suppose to the SEO community.

00:13:34.701 –> 00:13:38.176
And they, I’m from there others,
but like HubSpot, inbound.org

00:13:38.176 –> 00:13:40.396
and all their training about
how to even beat, what is it?

00:13:40.396 –> 00:13:41.736
Inbound marketing agency.

00:13:42.046 –> 00:13:43.006
What does that even mean?

00:13:43.006 –> 00:13:46.306
Like the blog is amazing
and the events are amazing.

00:13:47.151 –> 00:13:47.631
I agree.

00:13:47.811 –> 00:13:51.171
So would you say that’s like the main
characteristic, like how they’ve helped

00:13:51.171 –> 00:13:54.580
you understand what your businesses
are supposed to be as a business owner?

00:13:54.580 –> 00:13:56.900
Or is, has it, have they
done delivered other value?

00:13:56.925 –> 00:13:58.558
The product, yes, but like beyond that

00:13:58.558 –> 00:13:59.478
Rob Bynder: the product for sure.

00:13:59.491 –> 00:14:04.274
And as the product evolves, I’m adding
new business services along with.

00:14:04.364 –> 00:14:07.710
So now everything’s about the
CRM and the sales tool and

00:14:07.740 –> 00:14:09.180
the content management system.

00:14:09.180 –> 00:14:12.720
And these things didn’t really
exist even five years ago

00:14:12.840 –> 00:14:14.307
when I started my partnership.

00:14:14.307 –> 00:14:18.803
It’s helping me expand my services and
become more valuable to my clients.

00:14:18.934 –> 00:14:23.345
But it’s also the community, the HubSpot
community, you and I met through Hubspot.

00:14:23.854 –> 00:14:26.127
And I’ve made a lot of my friends.

00:14:26.187 –> 00:14:27.897
I know just through the community.

00:14:28.037 –> 00:14:30.567
Maybe I’ve never seen them in person,
especially over the last couple of

00:14:30.567 –> 00:14:35.005
years, but like I’m I, I do appreciate
the humanity behind the company.

00:14:35.072 –> 00:14:38.856
I, sometimes I feel like a number to
them, especially because I’m not a,

00:14:38.908 –> 00:14:46.107
super elite, double diamond Sapphire
partner, but I’m kinda just hanging on

00:14:46.107 –> 00:14:51.417
to keep my, my, my tiered partnership
with them because my model is not to

00:14:51.417 –> 00:14:53.787
just sell as much HubSpot as I can.

00:14:54.522 –> 00:14:57.642
Although, I think they’d like that,
but I think they also understand

00:14:58.002 –> 00:15:03.612
that art, we have an overlap of
shared goals, but some of my goals

00:15:03.702 –> 00:15:07.632
are not theirs and some of their
goals are not mine and it still works

00:15:09.480 –> 00:15:12.870
Sunir Shah: that’s the thing, you’re, you
are a separate business and they are a

00:15:12.870 –> 00:15:16.140
separate business from you, but to make
a partnership work like any relationship,

00:15:16.170 –> 00:15:18.450
it’s like any relationship you’re
basically, I wouldn’t say you’re married,

00:15:18.450 –> 00:15:19.879
but it’s like that, they have their needs.

00:15:19.879 –> 00:15:22.519
You’re not going to be, you’re not
the best agency from their point

00:15:22.519 –> 00:15:25.579
of view, but they still invest in
you because they care about you

00:15:25.579 –> 00:15:27.439
to appropriate levels, hopefully.

00:15:27.919 –> 00:15:30.199
And then in return you have your
own business in your own needs.

00:15:30.429 –> 00:15:33.836
They’ve also helped you grow
as an think about new stuff.

00:15:33.919 –> 00:15:39.160
So that’s what is so amazing about, I
know I can gush it a HubSpot all day long.

00:15:39.250 –> 00:15:40.150
It can complain about it too.

00:15:40.159 –> 00:15:41.745
It’s like people, but it’s
been such an interesting.

00:15:42.465 –> 00:15:45.525
It’s such an interesting ecosystem,
definitely industry leading

00:15:45.615 –> 00:15:49.211
like the leaders easily for good
reason, but let’s turn around.

00:15:49.211 –> 00:15:50.621
Let’s get some, add some drama.

00:15:52.061 –> 00:15:53.501
No, but who has been the worst experience?

00:15:53.531 –> 00:15:55.271
You must have worked
with a lots of partners.

00:15:55.691 –> 00:15:58.300
Now you don’t have to name and shame,
but I’m curious, like what kind of

00:15:59.080 –> 00:16:02.770
digital platform or tool has really
given you a hard time as an agency to

00:16:02.770 –> 00:16:04.210
bring things under control for you?

00:16:06.130 –> 00:16:06.550
Rob Bynder: Yeah.

00:16:06.607 –> 00:16:10.215
Boy, there’s a lot of them, because
There’s just a lot of software companies

00:16:10.215 –> 00:16:12.615
out there and it’s doubling every year.

00:16:12.615 –> 00:16:16.377
It seems like to me, early on, like
I mentioned I was with my partner.

00:16:16.399 –> 00:16:21.139
My, my first partnership was with
an email service provider and

00:16:21.319 –> 00:16:23.629
that was not a great experience.

00:16:24.049 –> 00:16:25.819
I thought it was going
to be a great experience.

00:16:25.819 –> 00:16:29.719
And then I watched all their
competition, just blow them away.

00:16:30.859 –> 00:16:34.039
Features and service and partnerships.

00:16:34.039 –> 00:16:37.996
And pretty soon they just they just
floundered and I just, I couldn’t.

00:16:38.446 –> 00:16:42.706
And then I literally had to get
my clients off that platform at

00:16:42.706 –> 00:16:45.406
my costs, because I just didn’t
want to work with them anymore.

00:16:45.946 –> 00:16:47.986
And that was, yeah, it was terrible.

00:16:48.076 –> 00:16:48.886
It was terrible.

00:16:48.886 –> 00:16:54.732
So the other ones that I come across
companies all the time now, I would say.

00:16:56.802 –> 00:17:00.742
I’m contacted several times a day by
companies that want to partner with me.

00:17:00.742 –> 00:17:04.125
We, you’re an agency and we mix up
where, and we want to partner with you.

00:17:04.545 –> 00:17:09.172
And, I know they’re using automation and
I’m getting these robot emails from them.

00:17:09.201 –> 00:17:10.497
I know what they’re doing.

00:17:10.497 –> 00:17:14.117
And I can tell that it there’s
not a lot of humanity there.

00:17:14.126 –> 00:17:18.016
There’s not a lot of commitment
on their part to help me.

00:17:18.626 –> 00:17:23.198
Grow or to do or to provide me
with anything I really need.

00:17:23.528 –> 00:17:26.721
And even though, I’ve come across
a few platforms here and there

00:17:26.721 –> 00:17:28.412
that you’re like, oh that’s good.

00:17:28.442 –> 00:17:29.582
That’s good functionality.

00:17:29.582 –> 00:17:33.332
And I think it’s going to dovetail
well with what my clients need.

00:17:33.344 –> 00:17:38.573
Ultimately I may not even partner with
them, we’ll just get one account going and

00:17:38.603 –> 00:17:42.498
I’ll just move on because I just don’t,
I don’t feel like they’re committed to.

00:17:42.566 –> 00:17:45.675
In ways that I’ve come to expect
through my relationship with HubSpot,

00:17:45.723 –> 00:17:47.733
I did just start a new going back.

00:17:47.733 –> 00:17:48.513
I don’t know, man.

00:17:48.723 –> 00:17:52.768
I can complain all day long, but I
know, I guess you do want to hear it.

00:17:52.827 –> 00:17:56.330
I just started working with
Leadfeeder and they’re awesome.

00:17:56.360 –> 00:17:58.610
Like they’ve been really
good to work with.

00:17:58.643 –> 00:18:02.693
Just started a partnership with them and
it dovetails really well with what I’m

00:18:02.693 –> 00:18:04.838
doing in HubSpot for a lot of my clients.

00:18:04.838 –> 00:18:08.111
And just this week I had some
really good calls with them and

00:18:08.501 –> 00:18:10.661
we got one project off the ground.

00:18:10.661 –> 00:18:12.401
And what made it work?

00:18:12.431 –> 00:18:13.437
Sunir Shah: Like why were they so great?

00:18:13.451 –> 00:18:18.390
Rob Bynder: I got the sense that
they understood my business and my.

00:18:19.540 –> 00:18:24.670
And made it clear that they had
a good tool that when appropriate

00:18:24.700 –> 00:18:26.440
would help me do my job better.

00:18:27.010 –> 00:18:30.550
And I felt like they were
listening to my needs as well as

00:18:30.550 –> 00:18:32.128
just telling me to sell software.

00:18:32.157 –> 00:18:33.747
I have access to them.

00:18:33.837 –> 00:18:36.267
I don’t, they’re easy
to get in touch with.

00:18:36.297 –> 00:18:37.167
They’re very helpful.

00:18:37.167 –> 00:18:41.637
They’re willing to jump on demonstrations
with me and sales calls with me and

00:18:41.637 –> 00:18:45.117
help me figure out how to sell better.

00:18:45.210 –> 00:18:48.463
And and that’s just started, but
that was nice because I come across

00:18:48.463 –> 00:18:52.393
some other companies, maybe not
their competitors, but certainly

00:18:52.393 –> 00:18:55.183
maybe some HubSpot competitors that
are always knocking on their door.

00:18:55.663 –> 00:18:58.769
And I just I just get a bad feeling.

00:18:58.979 –> 00:19:02.369
I get a bad feeling from having
that introductory phone call with

00:19:02.369 –> 00:19:03.835
them, just yeah, you guys are just.

00:19:06.575 –> 00:19:09.200
You don’t understand that, you
don’t understand my business

00:19:09.200 –> 00:19:10.310
and you don’t really care to.

00:19:10.339 –> 00:19:13.879
Sunir Shah: They probably, if they just
want you to sell their software, they

00:19:13.879 –> 00:19:16.549
don’t care anything about your needs.

00:19:16.577 –> 00:19:16.977
Rob Bynder: I don’t

00:19:17.967 –> 00:19:18.147
Sunir Shah: know.

00:19:18.147 –> 00:19:22.647
I’ll tell you a story about me because
I should be interviewing you, but I

00:19:22.647 –> 00:19:25.197
did this on purpose and this leads
to the last question, but my original

00:19:25.227 –> 00:19:26.477
headline for AppBind, I knew it was.

00:19:27.332 –> 00:19:28.562
But I just wanted to throw it out there.

00:19:28.562 –> 00:19:28.682
Cause

00:19:28.732 –> 00:19:29.992
I wanted people to get angry.

00:19:30.022 –> 00:19:31.372
Cause I want to hear what it was like.

00:19:32.212 –> 00:19:33.562
Cause I’m a troll, I’m a troll.

00:19:33.592 –> 00:19:37.330
So I’m originally headline on the
homepage was buy software and sell it to

00:19:37.330 –> 00:19:42.160
your clients, which is absolutely what
everyone, every SaaS company is pitching

00:19:42.190 –> 00:19:44.620
and is absolutely the wrong message.

00:19:44.681 –> 00:19:48.516
I just, I cornered somebody at one
of my cocktail parties at Dreamforce.

00:19:48.546 –> 00:19:48.786
Remember.

00:19:48.798 –> 00:19:51.080
It was probably inappropriate that
cornered to him, but I bought him a drink.

00:19:51.080 –> 00:19:52.250
That’s how that sits.

00:19:52.250 –> 00:19:52.580
Okay.

00:19:52.790 –> 00:19:52.880
Yeah.

00:19:52.880 –> 00:19:53.510
Who’s friends of mine.

00:19:53.510 –> 00:19:53.780
It’s funny.

00:19:54.620 –> 00:19:56.330
I like what’s wrong with this message.

00:19:57.875 –> 00:19:59.345
No, there was no value in it.

00:19:59.345 –> 00:20:00.245
It was all risks.

00:20:00.305 –> 00:20:02.645
And I just feel so many of the
software companies are just trying

00:20:02.645 –> 00:20:06.515
to push risk down into your throat
so they can make their quota.

00:20:06.965 –> 00:20:09.335
And they’re so afraid of you
as, at the same time, which is

00:20:09.335 –> 00:20:11.915
why they’re not listening to you
because they don’t know you at all.

00:20:11.915 –> 00:20:14.735
And they have the reason why is
because they’ve been risked isn’t and

00:20:14.735 –> 00:20:16.625
pushed down to them from the CX suite.

00:20:16.650 –> 00:20:17.625
And make more money.

00:20:17.685 –> 00:20:20.175
And I don’t know anything
about these people do it now.

00:20:21.465 –> 00:20:23.685
And then just view you
as the customer channel.

00:20:23.685 –> 00:20:24.885
Cause they’re so used to direct.

00:20:25.275 –> 00:20:28.395
So my last question, maybe you already
answered it with Leadfeeder, but

00:20:28.395 –> 00:20:32.413
like actually, maybe you have, but if
someone’s, if you had to give advice to

00:20:32.413 –> 00:20:36.447
a software company, to emulate Leadfeeder
and be better how could they improve

00:20:36.877 –> 00:20:40.017
in, in talking with you rather than.

00:20:41.927 –> 00:20:42.437
Yeah, that’s a good

00:20:42.437 –> 00:20:42.887
Rob Bynder: question.

00:20:42.887 –> 00:20:46.682
I answered that with Leadfeeder, but I
think like in a nutshell if I’m talking

00:20:46.682 –> 00:20:51.692
to a salesperson about a partnership,
it’s not going to work, they’re working

00:20:51.692 –> 00:20:53.222
on quotas, they’re working on sales.

00:20:53.222 –> 00:20:55.202
They just want me to sell for them.

00:20:55.261 –> 00:20:58.894
They’re looking for a pyramid,
somewhat of a pyramid situation.

00:20:59.674 –> 00:21:01.864
If I’m talking to somebody
who maybe doesn’t know.

00:21:03.014 –> 00:21:06.404
Skin in the game, as far as sales
goes, maybe they all do, but they

00:21:06.404 –> 00:21:11.721
don’t, it doesn’t feel like it to me
they’re literally a partner manager.

00:21:11.771 –> 00:21:13.855
I think that’s going to
be a lot more successful.

00:21:13.885 –> 00:21:18.625
I feel like with HubSpot and with
Leadfeeder, I think my partner contacts

00:21:19.045 –> 00:21:23.395
are more concerned about my success as
a business and how their tool fits in.

00:21:24.385 –> 00:21:27.925
Then they are about selling
units, selling subscriptions.

00:21:28.015 –> 00:21:30.349
And and I think that
would be my suggestion.

00:21:30.349 –> 00:21:36.093
If you’re going to try to build a
partnership program, treat your partners

00:21:36.093 –> 00:21:40.439
like clients solve their needs, listen to
what they need and solve their problems.

00:21:41.589 –> 00:21:42.039
Sunir Shah: Amazing.

00:21:42.163 –> 00:21:43.213
So how do we get ahold of you?

00:21:43.333 –> 00:21:44.503
Thank you very much for doing this.

00:21:44.503 –> 00:21:45.103
So how do we get into.

00:21:45.216 –> 00:21:45.708
Rob Bynder: Of course.

00:21:45.791 –> 00:21:50.118
My website is Bynder
group.com byndergroup.com.

00:21:51.698 –> 00:21:52.148
Sorry.

00:21:52.215 –> 00:21:54.096
You can find me on LinkedIn at Rob Bynder.

00:21:54.146 –> 00:21:59.546
I’m one of the only BYN D E R is in the
country or in the world for that matter.

00:21:59.675 –> 00:22:02.366
And you could email me
at rob@byndergroup.com

00:22:03.566 –> 00:22:05.636
Sunir Shah: thank you so much
for being so candid and I love

00:22:05.666 –> 00:22:07.076
that you had such a long history.

00:22:08.126 –> 00:22:12.416
Coming in from visuals into tech, because
that is the journey that I’ve been on.

00:22:12.446 –> 00:22:15.656
Similarly, not quite
visual, but similar journey.

00:22:15.656 –> 00:22:19.826
And it’s nice to talk to someone who has
experienced it alongside with me as well.

00:22:19.826 –> 00:22:20.096
So

00:22:20.696 –> 00:22:20.916
Rob Bynder: thank you.

00:22:20.916 –> 00:22:21.956
So thanks for having me Sunir.

00:22:21.956 –> 00:22:22.946
I really appreciate it.

00:22:22.946 –> 00:22:24.356
It’s great to talk with you too.

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