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welcome back to another agency connect 101 
we have judy hayes here who has written  

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the book on linkedin strategy i’m very excited 
to have you here i’m senior shaw president of  

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cloud software association and ceo of appbind 
i’m all about getting that digital under control  

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so your agency gets under control judy has 
figured it out after many years of consulting  

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how to do it right and you know you can tell 
tell us all about your book and yourself judy  

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uh you’re one of the like the experts oh my gosh 
yeah i didn’t put me on a pedestal there’s yes  

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well you know and and i appreciate this 
opportunity and we met online so one of these  

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days we’ll meet in the flash uh irl as we say um 
yeah i you know it’s funny working with a platform  

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like linkedin it’s i started out in marketing and 
then i got into digital and then i got into social  

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and then i just really honed in on 
linkedin because it it really is the  

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the definitive b2b platform but the challenge is 
that trying to uh help others really embrace the  

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platform because there’s so many people that that 
know they need to use it but they don’t know what  

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the heck to do you know and you may just see a 
couple of players on linkedin that are really  

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crushing it but then there’s others like oh yeah i 
need to be on linkedin and then you look at their  

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profile and they’ve got like their picture from 
20 years ago or you know something like that so  

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um what i did was i put together my methodology 
in a book and it’s it’s hopefully a quick read  

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but basically it’s built on three principles 
and they all work together okay so if you can  

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imagine you you put your bum on a stool right 
the stool’s got three legs it needs these  

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three legs to function as a stool otherwise 
you’re going to you know falling backwards  

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um the first one and if i’m talking too fast tell 
me okay because i have a lot of coffee um but  

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the first one i is called elevate and elevate is 
really the premise of of dressing up for the party  

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i want to elevate your brand i want to elevate 
your presence i want to elevate your experience  

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okay so when you when you look at how you’re 
presenting yourself that’s the first component the  

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second component is expand and expand is really 
where now that you’re dressed for this party  

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you’re going to have um people that you’re going 
to invite to the party so how do you how do you  

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find these people how do you network with people 
have you looked at your existing network there’s  

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so many great things in your existing network i’d 
say probably a majority of my clients have closed  

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a deal just engaging with their existing network 
powerful and the third part of the equation  

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is engage so again if we’re back to the 
virtual event engage is the food that’s  

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served so you’ve got the people there you’re all 
dressed up and now you got the food and the wine  

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and i’ll just give you a shout out to near you’re 
the one that sent that wonderful open bar as a  

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service when we didn’t go virtual the engagement 
part is where people get loose and they talk and  

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they have fun and they get to know each other and 
that’s the part that not everyone has the comfort  

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level to do it on linkedin you know so again it’s 
those three parts that really make the experience  

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beneficial so what i do with the companies that i 
work with and i work exclusively in the b2b space  

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mainly for professional service companies that are 
selling a high ticket okay so it’s at least five  

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figures six figures plus high trust professional 
service okay so it could be a technology like a  

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transportation management technology it could be a 
physical security surveillance system it could be  

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all kinds of things you know that fit into that 
cpa platform so we use linkedin not to sell  

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contrary to what i just said we use it to to find 
because again it’s it’s a robust database really  

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robust if you know how to do boolean strings 
and things like that you can make that platform  

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sing so we use it to find our ideal prospects 
and then we look for signals to engage with them  

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so you know we we have the elevate because we’ve 
dressed up you know so we’re meeting these people  

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and now we’re looking to expand we’re bringing 
them into our network and now we’re engaging with  

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them so is that more than you ever want to know 
about linkedin i want to know more leave please  

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there’s so much i want to know first where’s the 
book you have two copies behind you flog your book  

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oh my gosh yeah well it’s kind of a funny story 
i just got my delivery on these things i came  

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out november 18th and uh for various supply chain 
issues um i just got the boxes but the book is on  

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amazon and it’s a you can get it in kindle or you 
can get it in this nice handy it’s a 200 page book  

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and i actually marked up my own book um you know 
because that’s what i’m going to mark things up  

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so it’s called elevate expand someone who started 
in this industry when i was 16 in the publishing  

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industry you hurt my soul because all the yeah 
because i you’re supposed to flog your book oh  

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you know and here’s the funny thing this is the 
this is the part that blows people’s mind when  

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i’m working on their linkedin profile they want 
to talk about themselves but it’s me and i’m  

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wonderful and i did this and i went here and i’ve 
got all these degrees and it’s like you know what  

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you’re talking about me yeah i’m more 
interested i don’t talk about myself  

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i don’t i want to hear about you exactly when i 
meet someone for the first time and they say hey  

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judy what do you do i said i could talk all day i 
wonder why i might be interviewing people you know  

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my my evil plan to talk about app bind in the on 
the after show credit you know podcast to sell hey  

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this is where you know where we are cultivating 
seeds here so here cause i know one day i’m going  

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to hunt you down and find you and you know we’re 
going to meet it’s like oh my gosh and there’ll be  

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hugs and they’ll be laughing they’ll be like let’s 
be clear that’s my brand open bar as a service

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no i mean this is what it’s about like i you 
know why we why are we why did i reach out to  

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you because yes i have something to flog why 
else would i be doing work otherwise would  

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be other things to do but the story that you are 
telling is a story that i’m working on and you’re  

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working on and other people who are way behind 
us or you know anxious worried they need to hear  

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how you solved it so let’s let’s talk a little 
bit before we get into like the linkedin stuff  

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because that’s really more interesting before 
forward doing you you before you wrote a book  

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you’re you were a consultant and i think you’re 
still doing inbound pipeline management consulting  

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yeah i’ve always been in marketing i started out 
a hundred years ago before you were even born at  

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uh an agency called rap collins new york city it’s 
a direct response agency and um i learned direct  

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response marketing which is was the stepchild 
or the the great grandchild of today’s digital  

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target marketing right so i’ve always been in 
marketing i’ve just worked in a lot of different  

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verticals and a lot of different sides client-side 
agency side vendor side you know i’ve tried them  

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all and uh and wound up realizing that 
i’m genetically unemployable and so i  

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work for myself so it’s the best my bosses who i’m 
accountable to besides my two dogs are my clients  

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they’re my bosses that’s who i am accountable to 
and and it’s a great thing and um you know what i  

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was saying to you earlier is i don’t bill hourly 
or sell you know by the hour i said well this is  

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the trap this is what this whole thing’s about 
like the thing that keeps happening is that when  

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you’re an agency you’re you start by selling time 
for money if you’re smart you’re not going to sell  

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time for money because like i said earlier um if 
you sell time for money what happens is the better  

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and smarter you get the less you make if i 
trade you 100 an hour and now it only takes  

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me 30 minutes i’m only going to be able to build 
you 50 bucks but if i sold you an outcome that i  

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will produce this product for a hundred dollars it 
takes me 10 minutes i still get 100 bucks but i do  

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track time i do use an app to track time because 
i want to know if i am profitable if i am  

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allocating enough resources to a particular 
client or if a client is taking more resources  

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so the thing that you know i was a drucker 
that said it you know you can’t you can’t  

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manage what you don’t measure so i think it’s 
really important to have that data but i don’t  

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bill on that but i do use that when i’m writing a 
proposal or something and kind of scoping the work  

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that helps me understand yep this is where this 
is going to go or oops should have done that  

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so i do recommend that to people is do understand 
the two bobs podcast is where i learned that one  

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okay here’s here’s the thing so i’m evolving my 
questions getting sharper here with the podcast  

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the issue is that i have seen over my career 
i started off in license software where we  

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weren’t selling time we were selling outcomes 
we were building systems computers networking  

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windows licenses sdk as i build the system then we 
maintain it for three years and of course it’s a  

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10-year client because we keep extending and that 
is you know how commercial plumbers work you know  

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every normal industry works that way and then when 
i was at freshbooks and marketing i saw everyone  

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on subscriptions lose all of that and they were 
trading time again for outcomes even though we  

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kept telling value-based pricing whatever and the 
question i have that we want to explore with this  

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is because digital subscriptions has basically 
made you give me so many agencies give up their  

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control over what they’re making and the outcomes 
to other people they end up back on the hamster  

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treadmill trading time for money and that is 
really painful right and you know yes now i have  

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app buying which is my product to solve part of 
that problem with managed services yay gave for me  

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but what is this there’s so many solutions that 
give people leverage you’ve just written a book  

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right you have some narrow down your services yeah 
i think you found a lot of leverage in what you’re  

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doing so i mean you’re focused and you wrote a 
book and on link you focus on linkedin you wrote a  

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book and you have a pipeline what is you would say 
is your leverage in order to get the most outcome  

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based versus time you know that is really 
the question first of all i’m very clear on  

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who my target market is and i and i think 
for for apps for for technology anything  

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it’s not everybody it has to be very specific so 
i think that’s the first thing is i’m very clear  

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on that because what happens is if i’m having 
an initial conversation and i have a couple of  

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questions that i’ll ask if i if that’s not a right 
fit i can do a couple of things one is i can refer  

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them to somebody else in my network second is i 
can overprice it so you know it’s a nice way of  

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you know whatever well the third is really just 
tell the client it’s really not a fit so you know  

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it it is i think it’s scary for people to you know 
narrow down it’s like it’s like saying a niche you  

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know because there are tools that try to be too 
much you know when i think of apps they try to  

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do too much and it winds up doing a little bit of 
nothing you know so um so that’s the first thing  

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is being really specific about who your audience 
is in my case i work with professional service  

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companies generally revenue to 10 million now i 
do have clients that have more than 10 million  

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i provide different types of services i train 
their teams but the ones that i’m giving them  

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white glove linkedin campaign management generally 
they’re averaging about 5 million in revenue and  

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they’re selling a high ticket professional 
service so this way their acquisition cost  

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and the cost of the leads that i’m bringing in 
you know we understand what those metrics are  

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we understand how long a lot of them it takes you 
know six months eight months 12 months 18 months  

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you know but when the deals are closed 
they’re multi-million dollar lifetime deals  

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so it’s it’s being in it for the long game and 
so you know understanding who your target is and  

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being willing to walk away from something that 
isn’t i don’t know if a software company can do  

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something like that because you’re you’re selling 
in a sense a commodity so you want to position it  

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to the people that are buying it how this is 
different how how will it make my life better  

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what is my desire to end state i’ll tell you 
what somebody could make a lot of money is if  

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you could figure out a crm that plays nicely with 
linkedin because i don’t know any of them that do  

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hubspot does not salesforce does not you know 
less annoying crm does not pipedrive does not  

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nothing can come out of linkedin easily you can 
get it in linkedin but it’s very hard to get  

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things because they turned off the api well and 
that’s very you know that we talked about that  

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earlier it’s you know they are very protective 
about their api you know and and i think that  

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um that’s just one of the places where i feel 
that working with companies we have such an  

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inefficiency in tracking the progress through the 
sales development you know so when it’s first made  

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aware you know you’re first made aware of a lead 
and then you kind of vet that lead and you want  

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to put them into a nurturing system you know not 
not annoying emails but in you know you know in  

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a way on linkedin and then to the point where you 
know they they have a problem you have a solution  

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so do you have a relationship a partner like like 
a actual relationship with a company of linkedin  

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or are you just living on their platform i use 
the tool it’s a tool to me that’s the technology  

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that i use that’s my main technology is linkedin 
um it’s a rented platform it’s it’s one of the  

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differences i use so do you have a tech stack to 
manage it or are you it’s all hand manual like  

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like it’s cause it’s not you know i have i have a 
couple of tools that work i mean i have um there’s  

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an analytics tool that i use everything you have 
to be really careful about the terms of service  

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at linkedin and and they will suspend you in a 
moment and you know none of us can afford to get  

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suspended so um and and that is a serious thing 
when you get put in linkedin jail we just had  

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a talk about that this morning on the uh abound 
social uh mastermind group that i’m in it’s not a  

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fun thing and people do get put in jail even good 
people so um the other stack that i use is i use a  

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content management tool so that’s mainly to help 
my client have visibility and we plan a content  

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calendar another tool that i’ll use is is for 
like recording meetings or or preparing content  

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you know canva was one i mentioned to you i 
love that tool it’s easy to share you know we  

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can create uh branded guidelines things like that 
so those are they’re not as not so much automation  

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because with linkedin it’s harder to automate 
now i do run automation through like platforms  

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like twitter you know i have automated posts that 
are posted six ten times a day whatever retweeting  

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sending responses blah blah blah that’s fine you 
know because that you’re not violating any terms  

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of service um linkedin is is you gotta tread 
lightly you really gotta tread lightly so um  

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i use a tool called monday.com i think you heard 
of that i use black i you know but i got to tell  

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you every client has a different communication 
tool drives me bonkers we use base camp we’re  

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on asana we’re on slack we’re on trello i mean 
it’s like oh my gosh it’s just right yes everyone  

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asks me you know are you okay with asana i mean i 
don’t even care anymore i use google spreadsheets  

00:14:24.960 –> 00:14:30.000
in google docs i use google all the time but now 
all my clients are moving over to microsoft okay  

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so here’s the question so part of your job as 
a digital agency or right is to make the crazy  

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chaotic digital universe bring it under control 
deliver a result for a client that’s basically  

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your job linkedin is chaos because they keep 
fighting the ability to get it under control and  

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you’ve done it how do you manage a client project 
so so you’re not like burning time are you posting  

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manually or you have people manually running it or 
you have any automations like i pulled back on the  

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content there there’s one client was posting like 
three times a day and when i looked at the metrics  

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i said you know what you’re suppressing your reach 
in fact the algorithm was working in reverse it  

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was it was pushing it back and so what i do with 
a new client is we’ll post once a week on their  

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main profile and once a week on the company page 
and then we’ll start to look for opportunities  

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for engagement so i’d say a majority of it is done 
manually you know for tagging and adding some kind  

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you know if you upload a doc you can’t do that 
through the platform you can’t upload native  

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video you know so linkedin has made it really 
hard and if you’re running it through a third  

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party it can tell and sometimes you see the short 
code there and so you know again the algorithm  

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is looking at that and it’s suppressing it so i’m 
looking more for very unique one-on-one engagement  

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the best thing that i can do on linkedin is when 
i run a poll you’ve seen polls on linkedin right  

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they’re so annoying because there’s so many of 
them i i approach it totally different i’ll have  

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done the exercise with a client to figure out 
their their pain what are the problems what are  

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the really deep problems that you are solving and 
then we’ll come up with some really good questions  

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and we’ll run polls based on that and then we’ll 
create content based on the results of the poll  

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and then we’ll use that insight to go back out and 
share to our target audience so again that’s all  

00:16:14.480 –> 00:16:19.520
manual it’s very very manual but i am using 
tools along the way to create the different  

00:16:19.520 –> 00:16:25.760
pieces of that engagement but it’s not given the 
linkedin parameters i guess you could call it  

00:16:25.760 –> 00:16:30.880
i have not found a way to automate it without 
it coming across like oh they’re just pushing  

00:16:30.880 –> 00:16:34.240
this stuff out look you know and there’s 
no engagement yeah i mean that feels very  

00:16:34.880 –> 00:16:40.080
much like i mean linkedin has basically forced 
everyone into like our artisanal bakery you know  

00:16:40.080 –> 00:16:44.560
you’re basically making a wedding cake every 
time it’s like you know how to make a cake but  

00:16:44.560 –> 00:16:51.680
then you have to make it special every single time 
right and it is so you have like some processes in  

00:16:51.680 –> 00:16:56.720
the back of the of the kitchen right you’ve cause 
obviously you have tools like you have canva you  

00:16:56.720 –> 00:17:01.200
have the fondant icing machine you know whatever 
it is but yeah you still haven’t you have to  

00:17:01.200 –> 00:17:06.320
use time i have framework okay i’ve created 
frameworks like i i have i don’t use scripts  

00:17:06.320 –> 00:17:13.200
but i have um what i would call prompts so um and 
i don’t i don’t scrape data because you can get in  

00:17:13.200 –> 00:17:16.880
trouble with scraping data meaning that you could 
scrape the wrong thing like how many times have  

00:17:16.880 –> 00:17:23.120
you gotten something in your inbox said oh i see 
you’re in custom bakery you know and we’d like to  

00:17:23.120 –> 00:17:28.560
you know whatever you know refer people it’s 
like where do you see that on my profile you know  

00:17:28.560 –> 00:17:34.160
when you’re using the bots that are scraping 
stuff it it’s so it can damage your brand so  

00:17:34.160 –> 00:17:40.320
easily because on linkedin your face is attached 
with your outreach so it’s not as anonymous on  

00:17:40.320 –> 00:17:44.080
some of the other platforms you can have you know 
like we talked about these pseudo personalities  

00:17:44.080 –> 00:17:48.800
on linkedin it’s you it should be you you know 
although i got to tell you this and i’m going to  

00:17:48.800 –> 00:17:55.360
say this to the guys listening to this there are 
a lot of um what we would call um fake profiles on  

00:17:55.360 –> 00:18:02.160
linkedin that have these really beautiful women 
as the profile picture and they reach out to  

00:18:02.720 –> 00:18:08.640
you know different people and it’s interesting 
that if you actually look at those profiles and  

00:18:08.640 –> 00:18:12.880
look at their experience and look at you know 
some of the the common telltale signs they’re  

00:18:12.880 –> 00:18:17.520
fake profiles you say well why are they doing 
that well once you’re connected you get access  

00:18:17.520 –> 00:18:21.520
to my network you get to see things on my 
profile if i haven’t shut down my my settings  

00:18:22.240 –> 00:18:26.720
identity theft all kinds of things so be careful 
of pretty faces it’s not always what you think  

00:18:27.760 –> 00:18:33.120
you use hey there’s a tool called either tin i 
or google reverse search reverse image search  

00:18:33.120 –> 00:18:38.320
do that and you’ll be surprised what comes 
up so if you see like a really beautiful face  

00:18:38.320 –> 00:18:42.400
approaching you that wants to connect and says 
something flattering do that and see how many  

00:18:42.400 –> 00:18:48.000
beautiful faces there are tonight the great 
toronto company i would recommend the okay  

00:18:48.000 –> 00:18:54.560
well catfishing aside like linkedin is so valuable 
but so antagonistic to scrape data scraping  

00:18:54.560 –> 00:18:58.560
and we all know they turn off the api we know what 
they lost the lawsuit doesn’t make a difference  

00:18:58.560 –> 00:19:03.760
it doesn’t matter they’re very very useful and no 
one’s going to piss them off if they can avoid it  

00:19:03.760 –> 00:19:08.720
is there a comparable example that’s a much better 
experience has been a much better ecosystem for  

00:19:08.720 –> 00:19:12.880
you to turn into some kind of repeatable process 
you mentioned twitter but i don’t know if there’s  

00:19:12.880 –> 00:19:19.520
other other platforms that are better better than 
linkedin i spend some time on instagram i say  

00:19:19.520 –> 00:19:26.640
personally because it’s it’s where i live my dogs 
and what to eat right and that has been another  

00:19:26.640 –> 00:19:32.480
challenging app because it you know you can’t you 
have to do it on your phone and i’m not a good two  

00:19:32.480 –> 00:19:37.920
finger texter but i’ve noticed that there’s some 
tools now that you can use to make that engagement  

00:19:37.920 –> 00:19:43.280
you know a little bit more streamlined and i think 
that there are a couple of platforms that you can  

00:19:43.280 –> 00:19:48.000
do that with but i would say i would say this 
let me just throw this out there yes linkedin  

00:19:48.000 –> 00:19:55.600
is great use linkedin to find your ideal targets 
okay work real hard to get them offline yeah  

00:19:55.600 –> 00:20:00.320
make that your end game let’s get off of 
linkedin like we are here and have a conversation  

00:20:00.320 –> 00:20:06.000
okay because at that point then you can use some 
of the automated tools you know you really cool  

00:20:06.000 –> 00:20:11.760
newsletter strategy you can have a really great 
website that you’ve optimized and there’s a lot  

00:20:11.760 –> 00:20:17.840
of value there you know you can have live events 
youtube whatever but once you get people off of  

00:20:17.840 –> 00:20:24.640
linkedin and onto your owned media versus rented 
media okay because social media is really rented  

00:20:24.640 –> 00:20:29.360
yeah no matter how you look at it your owned 
media is your email list it’s your website  

00:20:29.360 –> 00:20:33.920
it’s anything that you own and control your 
podcast is owned media okay then there’s  

00:20:33.920 –> 00:20:39.120
earned media which is where you know you have it 
amplified through press and in the media and stuff  

00:20:39.120 –> 00:20:44.000
like that and then there’s pink media you know so 
my goal is really to get people off of linkedin  

00:20:45.520 –> 00:20:49.040
are you also managing the rest of the 
funnel so they get off the site you  

00:20:49.040 –> 00:20:55.360
yes what do you what do you use for that well it 
again every client has different preferences and  

00:20:55.360 –> 00:21:00.160
it depends on the size and the budget we’ve 
used hubspot we’ve used mailchimp we’ve uh  

00:21:01.680 –> 00:21:04.880
do you rely on the client to pick their 
software and you work with their or do you  

00:21:04.880 –> 00:21:08.800
make recommendations it depends on who it is 
each client is a little bit different if i can  

00:21:08.800 –> 00:21:14.320
recommend it then then i’ll go with the ones 
that i think are fit for the size of their uh  

00:21:14.320 –> 00:21:18.400
outreach you know and what they want to get out 
of it yeah i’d say linkedin is my gateway drug  

00:21:18.400 –> 00:21:24.480
i get in through linkedin and then i help them 
see the value of their full suite of marketing  

00:21:24.480 –> 00:21:29.200
outreach you know and i break it down into those 
four areas you know the owned media the social  

00:21:29.200 –> 00:21:34.720
media the earned media and the paid media and 
those are the channels that we work and so it’s  

00:21:34.720 –> 00:21:39.040
like how do you you know like one one thing that 
i do a lot with clients is we look at trade shows  

00:21:39.600 –> 00:21:45.920
and we see where can we present to speak i 
create speaker sheets for them and then we pitch  

00:21:46.480 –> 00:21:50.080
and we say hey we can put together a panel 
you know for this show and we’ve had really  

00:21:50.080 –> 00:21:54.800
good results i’ve also done that with editorial 
calendars for certain publications and said hey  

00:21:54.800 –> 00:22:00.000
my client is expert in in this particular subject 
matter you know they’d like to write a guest  

00:22:00.000 –> 00:22:04.960
column or something like that fantastic you know 
so i look for these opportunities because again  

00:22:04.960 –> 00:22:09.360
what we’re trying to do it’s kind of like you know 
billboard advertising you see it everywhere right  

00:22:09.920 –> 00:22:16.640
i want prospects to see my clients everywhere so 
on social in the trade publications in whatever  

00:22:16.640 –> 00:22:23.200
the the different lanes that they play in so you 
can think of me as the i’m the real estate agent  

00:22:23.200 –> 00:22:28.560
who stages your property so you get more money 
and you get more views you know as opposed to  

00:22:30.320 –> 00:22:34.800
i’m a terrible interviewer because i always have a 
trolling question reason why i ask these questions  

00:22:34.800 –> 00:22:38.880
i know where i’m going so go ahead one of the 
things that you’re doing reminds me of when i  

00:22:38.880 –> 00:22:43.920
was a consulting uh so i was i’m a partnership 
person so before i was applying i left olar  

00:22:43.920 –> 00:22:48.160
uh my third kid i decided to go consulting and i 
you know it was work my network and everyone knew  

00:22:48.160 –> 00:22:51.520
me from partnerships so i go in uh talking 
partnership strategy because that’s what  

00:22:51.520 –> 00:22:55.360
they needed i would say i would be if you’re 
a fractional partnership person blah blah  

00:22:55.360 –> 00:22:58.960
that was never what i did i mean whenever i did 
that the client the projects would end pretty  

00:22:58.960 –> 00:23:02.400
quickly not because i’m bad at it it’s just like 
partnerships is not a priority you’re talking  

00:23:02.400 –> 00:23:06.320
about linkedin strategy everyone wants linkedin 
and that you can get some functional stuff  

00:23:06.320 –> 00:23:10.720
but i imagine like a lot of the there’s a lot 
more work to be done around building out the  

00:23:10.720 –> 00:23:17.200
rest of the pipeline yeah and what i found when 
i was doing partnerships in my case is what what  

00:23:17.200 –> 00:23:22.080
was like the 25 000 part of the engagement was 
when i asked so who’s your customer and like  

00:23:22.080 –> 00:23:28.000
we don’t know oh great fantastic then i can 
run my user research and analytics tracking  

00:23:28.000 –> 00:23:31.680
you know projects you know and then i can do 
report on that and then go interview everyone  

00:23:31.680 –> 00:23:35.120
your staff and get them aligned to the project 
and i just kept doing that over and over again  

00:23:35.120 –> 00:23:38.400
yeah and then they say oh remember the 
partnership thing should you do that okay sure  

00:23:38.400 –> 00:23:42.720
yeah all right it’s interesting well the thing 
you said about the target market i either hear  

00:23:42.720 –> 00:23:49.360
oh everybody’s our target or i hear um no we we’re 
not really sure or they have too many targets but  

00:23:49.360 –> 00:23:55.360
they’re really fragmented so i think and a lot 
of people get stuck at that point you know it’s  

00:23:55.360 –> 00:24:00.720
really understanding who it is that you’re talking 
because then my question is where do they hang out  

00:24:00.720 –> 00:24:07.040
there are certain industries like for instance 
i have a client that’s a a big cpa firm very  

00:24:07.040 –> 00:24:14.400
large cpa firm and they sell a service to smaller 
mid-market cpa firms and what i was astonished to  

00:24:14.400 –> 00:24:20.800
see how many cpa firms are just not active on 
linkedin now email they respond to but linkedin  

00:24:21.520 –> 00:24:25.280
not so much but they’re getting better and i think 
that was one of the things that we’ve just been  

00:24:25.280 –> 00:24:30.560
through this whole paradigm shift of of doing 
things virtually and it’s it’s been good i mean  

00:24:30.560 –> 00:24:34.960
the last two years have been my two best years 
in my company okay so here’s what i’m getting  

00:24:34.960 –> 00:24:41.600
at so you get them on the story of linkedin yeah i 
mean that’s your position i mean you’re the person  

00:24:41.600 –> 00:24:46.160
you’re the person who’s linkedin that’s very clear 
i mean you are the expert i mean i was the expert  

00:24:46.160 –> 00:24:50.800
but then all the real work that that’s like keeps 
them around for a long time is all this back end  

00:24:50.800 –> 00:24:54.720
stuff which is the standard stuff so i mean i 
know you’re you know you’re working with susan  

00:24:54.720 –> 00:24:58.720
or whatever like what what kind of pipeline work 
are you doing at the back end like the rest of the  

00:24:58.720 –> 00:25:03.440
stuff like how much more of it will you implement 
it’s very um and it’s interesting because uh the  

00:25:03.440 –> 00:25:08.400
project that we’re launching next week um we’re 
doing some very specific research and again  

00:25:08.400 –> 00:25:14.560
going back to the client who do you want 
to target first question well we have three  

00:25:15.520 –> 00:25:22.160
cohorts or three groupings of of prospects and 
they’re very different so the messaging and the  

00:25:22.160 –> 00:25:26.480
outreach is different so if we’re building a 
pipeline you know we’re going to think about  

00:25:26.480 –> 00:25:32.240
okay so where’s the quick win who do we get to for 
a quick win that’s generally your existing network  

00:25:32.240 –> 00:25:38.240
there’s a 20 job change every year in anyone’s 
network linkedin put that stat out recently  

00:25:38.800 –> 00:25:43.120
so if you look at who you’re already connected 
with you already have the trust factor because  

00:25:43.120 –> 00:25:46.240
you’re already connected you know whether or 
not you know them it depends on how large your  

00:25:46.240 –> 00:25:51.600
network is but you know if you have that 
credibility then let’s have a conversation  

00:25:51.600 –> 00:25:55.680
sunir oh my gosh i didn’t know you were doing 
appbind i didn’t know you were doing this now  

00:25:55.680 –> 00:25:59.520
let’s catch up and then we start talking and then 
i start thinking oh my gosh i gotta introduce you  

00:25:59.520 –> 00:26:03.440
to so-and-so and you think yeah i gotta introduce 
you to this one and that’s when it happened so  

00:26:03.440 –> 00:26:08.240
that’s the first part of the pipeline the second 
part is now that we’ve identified the three target  

00:26:08.240 –> 00:26:13.760
audiences for this one example we’re going to 
start searching and we do very very detailed  

00:26:13.760 –> 00:26:19.200
boolean searches with inclusions and exclusions 
and we use the sales navigator platform for that  

00:26:19.200 –> 00:26:24.800
that’s a paid version of linkedin and i would 
recommend anyone that’s serious about linkedin  

00:26:25.520 –> 00:26:31.120
sales navigator is really really robust if 
you know how to use it okay so there’s there’s  

00:26:31.120 –> 00:26:36.000
definitely some some bells and whistle there um it 
has to do with how you find people so when we find  

00:26:36.000 –> 00:26:42.000
people then we look for signals and again this 
is all manual and it’s it’s very time consuming  

00:26:42.000 –> 00:26:47.520
but we have to actually look at people’s profiles 
so you can’t automate that you know i can’t have  

00:26:47.520 –> 00:26:54.320
a bot scan profiles you know because what what is 
it looking for is it looking for that pretty face  

00:26:54.320 –> 00:26:59.360
is it looking for you know you know what their 
activity is then the other thing that we do is  

00:26:59.360 –> 00:27:06.000
once we identify that then we look for signals 
to engage with that particular prospect so it’s  

00:27:06.000 –> 00:27:10.800
really a lot of one-on-one and it’s frustrating to 
some people they’re like well can’t you just get  

00:27:10.800 –> 00:27:15.280
me a hundred you know 100 calls it’s like well 
no because i don’t think any of those are going  

00:27:15.280 –> 00:27:20.240
to close but i can get you five or six calls and 
probably the probability is one or two will close  

00:27:21.440 –> 00:27:24.800
so when the client you’re managing client like 
a professional service firm they’re doing a six  

00:27:24.800 –> 00:27:30.240
figure sale or whatever it’s a typical thing right 
so are you doing the like are you actually writing  

00:27:30.240 –> 00:27:35.360
the outbound for them and sending it or are you 
making them do it but we do it together um i  

00:27:35.360 –> 00:27:40.800
will i will formulate something um because i’m 
really good at putting i’m a really good editor  

00:27:40.800 –> 00:27:46.240
but if you i mean the book took me two years um 
so we can talk about how long it takes to write  

00:27:46.240 –> 00:27:52.560
i’m a good editor and and i know what converts and 
the thing is you have to be agile on linkedin so  

00:27:52.560 –> 00:27:57.680
what i’ll do is i’ll do a sample test i’ll say let 
me send this out to five or six 10 15 people let’s  

00:27:57.680 –> 00:28:03.040
see what bites and let’s understand what that 
if it’s working okay now we’re going to expand  

00:28:03.040 –> 00:28:10.240
it um it’s not the same script it’s going to be 
customized to that person that’s receiving it and  

00:28:10.240 –> 00:28:14.400
there’s going to be something that a human finds 
on their profile that we’re going to customize it  

00:28:14.400 –> 00:28:20.480
but we have a process that will work them through 
now if we have a podcast that’s an easy message  

00:28:20.480 –> 00:28:25.280
like hey sunir you know i saw that you’re doing da 
da da i’d love to have you on my show wow you know  

00:28:25.280 –> 00:28:30.240
you’re going to get probably a 40 50 conversion 
on that if you’re targeted right or let’s say  

00:28:30.240 –> 00:28:38.000
that i as a company have a lot of insights because 
i talk to all your competitors so i’d love to give  

00:28:38.000 –> 00:28:44.960
you an executive briefing are you interested oh my 
gosh yes let’s chat so again as long as you don’t  

00:28:44.960 –> 00:28:51.200
deceive people and then go into your sales pitch 
because you don’t have to sell by selling you can  

00:28:51.200 –> 00:28:57.200
sell by educating education and provide like help 
help me be a better buyer of your service teach  

00:28:57.200 –> 00:29:01.600
me what it is how do how do i find the right tech 
stack that’s what i’m getting at here because you  

00:29:01.600 –> 00:29:06.160
mentioned it given what i’m talking about the 
audience here is the cloud software association  

00:29:06.160 –> 00:29:11.040
so the sas companies want to understand also how 
to work with companies like yourselves you said  

00:29:11.040 –> 00:29:15.600
part of it is getting them off linkedin onto 
your own media and then getting them into a  

00:29:15.600 –> 00:29:21.360
separate communications flow are you managing that 
as well and then and then like how much of that do  

00:29:21.360 –> 00:29:27.200
you actually well here’s the thing um the clients 
and like i said each one seems to have a different  

00:29:27.200 –> 00:29:33.360
crm i’m not giving visibility into all of their 
crms okay and that’s for a variety of reasons  

00:29:33.920 –> 00:29:37.200
sometimes it gets out of scope but 
sometimes it’s just because it’s a mess  

00:29:37.760 –> 00:29:42.400
and they’re not keeping track of it they’re not 
updating it so you know that’s why i’ll use google  

00:29:42.400 –> 00:29:46.960
sheets i’ll use monday.com and set up some nice 
flow boards where we can get the visibility we  

00:29:46.960 –> 00:29:52.800
need to say okay we are you know communicating 
with a hundred people how many are responsive  

00:29:53.520 –> 00:29:59.840
out of that batch that’s responsive how many 
are ready for the ask you know because at some  

00:29:59.840 –> 00:30:05.120
point you gotta ask for a call or ask for some 
kind of engagement but it’s not a let’s hop on  

00:30:05.120 –> 00:30:10.400
a call i hate that it’s more like hey i’ve 
got some intel you know about the industry  

00:30:10.400 –> 00:30:16.320
um are you interested in hearing about it you know 
or the podcast or i’m writing a book would love to  

00:30:16.320 –> 00:30:20.640
interview you’re an expert i think stroking ego 
goes a long way again as long as you’re sincere  

00:30:20.640 –> 00:30:24.480
don’t do a bait and switch don’t do that i had 
somebody reach out to me i know he used automation  

00:30:24.480 –> 00:30:29.120
because my first name is lowercase j right so 
that’s my telltale you can’t get around that if  

00:30:29.120 –> 00:30:33.760
you’re automating and so i called him on it and 
he says oh yeah yeah you know whatever so i said  

00:30:33.760 –> 00:30:37.440
all right look i’ll connect with you you gotta 
promise me though you’re not gonna pitch me no  

00:30:37.440 –> 00:30:44.080
slap pitching he said oh no no no no okay cool a 
couple weeks went by then i get a message from his  

00:30:44.080 –> 00:30:49.840
whoever his admin or somebody is and said hi this 
is sally and she’s writing to me in his account  

00:30:50.400 –> 00:30:55.840
number one mistake red flag we have this blah 
blah blah something that has nothing to do with me  

00:30:55.840 –> 00:30:59.680
not even remotely interested i couldn’t even refer 
to anybody obviously didn’t look at my profile  

00:31:00.320 –> 00:31:06.160
and then it had all these links and all this 
crap spam okay and so what i did was i said i  

00:31:06.160 –> 00:31:11.520
wrote back and i screenshot where he said no spam 
no sales pitching and i circled it and i said you  

00:31:11.520 –> 00:31:17.200
just broke a trust you just broke a trust and 
that’s what happens people are just looking  

00:31:17.200 –> 00:31:23.920
for you know that quick fix you you really are in 
danger of damaging your brand by doing that so you  

00:31:23.920 –> 00:31:30.240
have to slow down to hurry up the outcome so there 
are different okay part of this the point of this  

00:31:31.200 –> 00:31:37.440
exercise is to show to people who don’t understand 
how agencies operate what you’re doing yeah and  

00:31:37.440 –> 00:31:40.720
like the last question which we’ll get to in a 
second is someone want to reach out to us well  

00:31:40.720 –> 00:31:44.480
we also ask you if there’s a partner someone wants 
to be a software partner of yours like a part like  

00:31:44.480 –> 00:31:49.200
a software company yeah you know how would they 
communicate with you but like when do you actually  

00:31:49.840 –> 00:31:56.320
need a software partner well i’ll tell you what 
we just did this yesterday um we had to get remote  

00:31:56.320 –> 00:32:01.520
access because here’s the thing about linkedin is 
that um it can detect multiple ips from different  

00:32:01.520 –> 00:32:06.000
locations right so technically you know you really 
shouldn’t be all over the place and you shouldn’t  

00:32:06.000 –> 00:32:12.800
have multiple people logging in so we had to 
set up a server that’s centrally located and  

00:32:12.800 –> 00:32:17.040
we had to work with a couple of tech companies 
that were fabulous i’ll tell you what the chat  

00:32:17.040 –> 00:32:22.080
not having a bot chatting with you but like a 
real live human invaluable so if you’re a tech  

00:32:22.080 –> 00:32:27.360
company and you’re providing a complex service 
like that have educated people on your chat  

00:32:27.360 –> 00:32:33.680
because this guy his name was jeff he was golden 
i said jeff i love you he solved the problem  

00:32:33.680 –> 00:32:39.120
and he also made a 400 sale in the process we 
wound up paying for the software for the year  

00:32:39.120 –> 00:32:43.520
and you know it was a really great experience 
but it took us two hours and we had we were  

00:32:43.520 –> 00:32:48.160
calling in from four different three different 
countries four different locations germany  

00:32:48.160 –> 00:32:54.480
costa rica california new york and somewhere in 
chicago area all calling into this call so we’re  

00:32:54.480 –> 00:32:59.440
all trying to get visibility into one screen on 
the server to access an account and it was it  

00:32:59.440 –> 00:33:05.840
was frustrating but we all left happy and it was 
because the the cloud service provider and and  

00:33:05.840 –> 00:33:10.640
the the technologies that we were using had really 
good people on their side that they could walk us  

00:33:10.640 –> 00:33:15.280
through it and they were available and they were 
responsive they were knowledgeable so i’d say five  

00:33:15.280 –> 00:33:21.120
stars in my book i’ll write them a great review 
highly recommend them and it’s um splashtop is  

00:33:21.120 –> 00:33:24.720
the company i’m talking about i don’t know if you 
heard about them no splash imagine yeah they’re  

00:33:24.720 –> 00:33:31.040
virtual they’re a virtual machine phenomenal 
phenomenon kudo splashtop because they they my  

00:33:31.040 –> 00:33:35.520
hair is gray but they made it a little less gray 
would you now use them for your future clients  

00:33:36.640 –> 00:33:41.280
because we need that kind of environment set up 
because we have you know my my team is remote  

00:33:41.280 –> 00:33:46.080
we’re all over the place and um yeah we have 
to have it that way because a we can’t get  

00:33:46.080 –> 00:33:49.680
flagged every time we log into an account and 
everyone’s logging in for a different reason  

00:33:49.680 –> 00:33:54.640
i’m logging in to look at some of the key metrics 
you know somebody may be logging in to process the  

00:33:54.640 –> 00:33:58.640
invitation somebody may be logging in to share 
content you know but it has to be one central  

00:33:58.640 –> 00:34:03.360
hub and it has to be highly controlled and secure 
so yeah splashtop man they they just really save  

00:34:03.360 –> 00:34:08.720
the day do you have any other like partners like 
that do do i have what are there any other tool  

00:34:08.720 –> 00:34:12.880
vendors that are using it yeah the other one was 
mac stadium the the thing that was challenging is  

00:34:12.880 –> 00:34:18.080
that we were all on different types of equipment 
um i’d say two thirds of the team was on mac and  

00:34:18.080 –> 00:34:23.200
the other were on pcs okay so that was a challenge 
unto itself so we were using mac stadium which is  

00:34:23.200 –> 00:34:29.680
another great tool we’re using mac stadium 
to set up the mac uh interfaces there but um  

00:34:29.680 –> 00:34:35.120
you know again every problem seems to be unique i 
mean i don’t know it’s like i never have the same  

00:34:35.120 –> 00:34:41.760
problem twice it’s usually something i don’t know 
what it is but if you are bespoke you’re a bespoke  

00:34:41.760 –> 00:34:48.720
kind of agency so in this whole story yeah what am 
i trying to get get at so in the in the ecology of  

00:34:48.720 –> 00:34:56.000
agencies you are someone who custom tailors like 
a like a hand experience yeah yeah for each client  

00:34:56.000 –> 00:35:01.520
and so what is your leverage is that you just 
happen to have high outcomes because you know  

00:35:01.520 –> 00:35:05.760
what you’re doing which is i’m honest you 
know and and that’s the the thing like i  

00:35:05.760 –> 00:35:11.040
mean your adult your economic and like like why 
you’re not spending like throwing an hour in for  

00:35:11.040 –> 00:35:14.640
money anymore because you’re generating outcomes 
you know what you’re doing i’m generating outcome  

00:35:14.640 –> 00:35:19.920
and i’m honest with my clients and i’m really good 
at setting expectations and clearly communicating  

00:35:19.920 –> 00:35:25.200
what we’re doing um i think that you know i love 
solving problems i do jigsaw puzzles because i  

00:35:25.200 –> 00:35:30.080
just i love solving problems and so and again 
like i said i wish it was the same problem every  

00:35:30.080 –> 00:35:35.840
time but it usually isn’t it’s usually a lesson 
learned and oh great now we know but you know that  

00:35:35.840 –> 00:35:40.240
situation is different i could have a client that 
has remote locations and i got to get their team  

00:35:40.880 –> 00:35:44.880
into an account you know and that’s a whole 
nother situation you know there’s all kinds  

00:35:44.880 –> 00:35:51.680
especially now with with cyber security and and 
all that you know it’s it’s people really have to  

00:35:51.680 –> 00:35:57.040
um have certain protocols set up so the more i do 
this kind of work the more knowledgeable i get you  

00:35:57.040 –> 00:36:02.560
know which again you know i i wish i had the same 
problems occurring time after time it’s really you  

00:36:02.560 –> 00:36:09.280
know again expectations it’s it’s selling outcome 
i can’t guarantee you any amount of like you’re  

00:36:09.280 –> 00:36:14.800
going to get a million dollars in revenue but i 
can guarantee you that i will activate a certain  

00:36:14.800 –> 00:36:19.600
number of conversations that going to get you to 
that goal based on your average deal size based  

00:36:19.600 –> 00:36:25.040
on the the time frame and what you have to offer 
sometimes it takes me a while to dress you up and  

00:36:25.040 –> 00:36:28.960
get you ready you know because maybe you don’t 
have the right content you know maybe you have  

00:36:28.960 –> 00:36:34.400
sales content that that doesn’t appeal you know 
to the end user maybe you have no content you  

00:36:34.400 –> 00:36:38.560
know i love clients that have a lot of content you 
know because then i can do things with it but you  

00:36:38.560 –> 00:36:44.800
know that’s it and it’s up to you to really close 
it now i’ll coach you on what not to lead with do  

00:36:44.800 –> 00:36:50.000
not lead with your solution because that’s a turn 
off you know i will help my clients through that  

00:36:50.000 –> 00:36:55.360
conversation process but it’s ultimately up to 
them to close the deal so you know but what i try  

00:36:55.360 –> 00:37:01.600
to do is streamline things along the way so that 
they are having really good conversations with the  

00:37:01.600 –> 00:37:07.120
right people that’s what i deliver yeah it is very 
much relationship marketing and sales which is  

00:37:07.920 –> 00:37:12.240
very very which i can talk to you about how i 
would have automated it that was my other idea  

00:37:12.240 –> 00:37:17.120
for a company is a product called heartthrob 
which was a relationship marketing machine but  

00:37:18.000 –> 00:37:23.280
i’ll talk about that later oh i like that i have 
i have crazy metrics including call one called  

00:37:23.280 –> 00:37:28.560
hearts one where uh i used to measure my team 
at fresh books and partnerships on hearts one  

00:37:28.560 –> 00:37:33.440
like i actually drew the heart and put that in 
their kpis and like what the hell it’s like well  

00:37:33.440 –> 00:37:37.440
when people care about you and think about 
you first and then bring you an opportunity  

00:37:37.440 –> 00:37:41.520
for no reason except they like you 
yeah then you won the market you can’t  

00:37:41.520 –> 00:37:45.600
lose yeah when that happens well and that’s the 
thing is when we’re working with third-party  

00:37:45.600 –> 00:37:49.600
tools like linkedin you know it’s a third party 
platform they can make the rules and they can  

00:37:49.600 –> 00:37:55.760
change the rules at any time and so that’s why you 
have to be careful building a strategy on you know  

00:37:55.760 –> 00:38:00.640
another framework so for instance at one point 
you could get emails out of linkedin no problem  

00:38:01.200 –> 00:38:05.120
you know but then i guess with gdpr and 
you know ccpa and all the other stuff  

00:38:05.680 –> 00:38:09.280
that changed but they didn’t tell anybody and 
they just shut that feature off and then all  

00:38:09.280 –> 00:38:13.040
of a sudden everyone was like what happened to 
those emails you actually have to literally opt  

00:38:13.040 –> 00:38:19.440
in to to allow it to be released so yeah there’s 
there’s a lot of um i mean i love the platform  

00:38:19.440 –> 00:38:25.680
still my love affair has been we’ve been hot and 
heavy now since like 2018 me and linkedin i’ve  

00:38:25.680 –> 00:38:31.040
been on the platform since like 20 2009 i joined 
the platform you know but i built a business on  

00:38:31.040 –> 00:38:36.560
it you know since like 2018 maybe maybe a little 
earlier but it still works and i don’t know of  

00:38:36.560 –> 00:38:42.080
another platform they’re about to bring in an 
audio feature which looks a lot like clubhouse  

00:38:42.080 –> 00:38:47.520
but they’re bringing it in now and it’s in beta 
test and it is phenomenal i cannot wait to use it  

00:38:47.520 –> 00:38:52.080
i i really i mean for my clients i think it’s just 
going to give them a stage and another opportunity  

00:38:52.080 –> 00:38:58.640
to engage with their their prospective buyers so 
that’s my story and i’m sticking to it perfect  

00:38:58.640 –> 00:39:04.960
so how do people find you i assume on linkedin 
yeah my name is spelled um very simply j-u-d-i  

00:39:05.920 –> 00:39:12.000
h-a-y-s so judy hayes and what i say to people 
when they want to connect with me do not  

00:39:12.560 –> 00:39:17.040
shoot out one of those generic invitations because 
i won’t accept it so just tell me that you heard  

00:39:17.040 –> 00:39:23.440
me here tell me why why we should connect and i 
love people i love to connect and and if you’d  

00:39:23.440 –> 00:39:30.160
like a copy um a free chapter from my book it’s 
on my website judy hayes.com so j-u-d-i-h-a-y-s  

00:39:30.160 –> 00:39:36.720
dot com and you can download a free chapter and 
the book is also on amazon and what else um yeah  

00:39:36.720 –> 00:39:39.600
let’s connect on linkedin that’s why i always 
tell people you know they’ll reach out to me  

00:39:39.600 –> 00:39:43.680
like on my website oh i want to talk to you it’s 
like let’s connect on linkedin because i want to  

00:39:43.680 –> 00:39:47.840
look at their presence on linkedin and then we 
start from there and i want to see where it goes

00:39:54.400 –> 00:39:56.080
for more great insights on partnerships and  

00:39:56.080 –> 00:40:00.800
software like and subscribe and 
we’ll see you in the next video